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monty

First Service (CRV) - Mineral or Synthetic Oil

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53 minutes ago, iRage said:

Uhh...you guys do realize that it is not just the ambient temperature but also the engine temperature as well right ? Not just ambient temperature ? the oil needs to absorb and help in dissipating heat  (thus the need for oil coolers in race cars anyway)

The engine's heat is effected by the ambient temperature, the length/duration the engine has been running and the cooling system's cooling efficiency. So the ambient temperature actually does not matter if the other factors have a strong effect in increasing the engine temperature.

Definitely... 

Actually I didn't take all components together, because its difficult explain the effect of one variable, taking more variables at same time. (this is just like partial derivatives ..... 😀)

 

53 minutes ago, iRage said:

Now think about this....you are sitting in Colombo traffic for 1 hour...the cooling system is not effective because there simply is no air flow (though the engine)....so the engine gets a lot hotter than the averages that those charts indicate no matter what the ambient temperature is.

Regarding on traffic, Partially agreed but not fully... Because, even you are sitting on the traffic, you are on idle so less heat generation, and same time cooling system is working with his well bearable capacity. So, it shouldn't be big effect (but agreed that, minor effect will be there).

For continuous high revolution, then its yes. Even-though more air is going through the radiator as well as through engine bay, the heat generation is high and cooling system also works on its max limit. So obviously engine is running hotter than average. Correct me if I am wrong... 

 

Finally,...... My point is....

For a vehicle which 0W20 is recommended by the manufacture, 

1. Extreme end users - Thicker oil is the best for extreme end users (high speed or high rpm continuous long duration). 

2. For average users -  yes. the thicker oil is more safe (but this not means 0W20 is not suitable). In the sense of cost effectiveness, we cannot say 5W30 or 10W30 is more suitable than 0W20 for SL (using available technical data). 

 

 

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5 hours ago, gayanath said:

At which intervals you replaced oil (based on your on-board system)? Four oil changes for 19,000 km?

Sorry my mistake only three oil changes.🤥 first one was done at 5k then next two avaraged around 7k.

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All this is until the engine start and warm up after that they all run at the same temperature whether in Siberia, Colombo or Sahara.

Engine temperature is maintained consistent by the cooling system and any modern car will take precautionary measures if they exceed tolerance levels. Warnings/ Limping mode/ Engine stop.

I still cannot fathom all this fuss as our conditions are not harsh as we seems to think and most of the issues with oils are lower temperatures not the higher. Modern cars are equipped to handle higher temperatures (most of the turbos have oil coolers).

Besides we change oil unnecessary @ 5-6K where as manufactures recommend two to three times the mileage.

I have yet to come across or heard of a vehicle which had premature engine ware or sludge after using manufactures recommended oil and intervals.

0W-20, 5W-20 (20 oils) are recommended to meet emissions and fuel economy as these are the criteria on which cars are taxed in developed countries.

SAE 20W is a mono grade for use in winter or extreme cold conditions.

See below for Toyota Corolla Sport in USA (this is for 1.8L normally aspirated)

image.png.8d3b5da591eb954bde87af18d1fb56f4.png

 

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39 minutes ago, gayanath said:

Regarding on traffic, Partially agreed but not fully... Because, even you are sitting on the traffic, you are on idle so less heat generation,

 

I'd think not... the hot exhaust from the front car is being sucked by the engine, the road itself, pavement heated up so much its like the vehicle is slowly cooking on a stove, no air movement past the radiator so minimal heat dissipation...

Edited by Hyaenidae

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15 minutes ago, Hyaenidae said:

I'd think not... the hot exhaust from the front car is being sucked by the engine, the road itself, pavement heated up so much its like the vehicle is slowly cooking on a stove, no air movement past the radiator so minimal heat dissipation...

This is true for very old cars which radiator fan directly coupled to engine. Idling means fan rpm also less + the factors you mentioned. 

But for latest cars, din't the fan managed the required airflow depending on the cooling load needed? 

We never heard an engine which is not boiling in high speeds boiling in idling, but there are incidents which engines are not boiling in traffic (or idling) boiling in high speeds. 

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1 hour ago, gayanath said:

We never heard an engine which is not boiling in high speeds boiling in idling, but there are incidents which engines are not boiling in traffic (or idling) boiling in high speeds. 

Well my Lancer EX 2008 had exactly same issue, car was getting heated at heavy traffic. Faulty high speed in the radiator cooling fan (it had two speeds and only the lower speed was working) 

It was replaced under warrenty

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4 hours ago, gayanath said:

For continuous high revolution, then its yes. Even-though more air is going through the radiator as well as through engine bay, the heat generation is high and cooling system also works on its max limit. So obviously engine is running hotter than average. Correct me if I am wrong... 

 

You are wrong.....if you keep an engine running even at still..it keeps building heat. The car does not have to move for it to get hotter. The cooling system requires cool air entering and hitting the radiator....plus the fan...plus oil to actually absorb the heat. If the air does not hit the radiator...then the fan and oil does cool it up to a certain level and then it just gets too much for it to handle. If you do not trust me....feel free to leave your engine running in the hot heat for an indefinite period of time with the radiator blocked up...heck you can even drive with the radiator blocked and see what happens.... 

4 hours ago, kush said:

I still cannot fathom all this fuss as our conditions are not harsh as we seems to think and most of the issues with oils are lower temperatures not the higher. Modern cars are equipped to handle higher temperatures (most of the turbos have oil coolers).

The environment is not...it is the way we have to use the car that makes it harsh. What makes usage harsh is not extreme cold or extreme heat...Short trips before engine reaching proper op temperature....or long non stop trips or heavy traffic all contribute to it.

Yes..modern engines are designed to keep the engine within a specified operating temperature. How do you think it does that ? It is NOT just the radiator and the fluid. A car's cooling system has many components...the fan and the radiator and the fluid (which is all that you seem to consider)..plus the oil..the oil is supposed to absorb the heat (which is why you need a oil that can actually absorb more heat without losing its viscosity too much too rapidly which is why a heavier oil is preferred and why cars have oil coolers...if the oil gets too hot it thins out and then becomes less effective in lubricating the engine)...and the metal/compound the engine is built with AND the design of the block (eg...there is a reason why some engines have ribs in the body..it is to increase surface area so there is more surface area to dissipate heat.

Yes...there should not be a fuss about it....and there would not be a fuss if you realize WHY some vehicles have 20 weight oils...and why sometimes it is better to go to 30.  There is absolutely nothing wrong in putting 30 weight oil...but does have an added benefit. The only down side is that you may lose a bit of fuel efficiency....so it is up to the owner of the car to decide what is more worth for him/her...longevity of the engine or saving a few LKR on fuel.

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Its a really nice discussion.

If one can share a graph showing the variation of the temperature of the engine after starting the vehicle, it will be a great help to relate Gayanath's interesting set of curves. Based on the facts presented by Gayanath, I too don't see a reason for deviating manufacturer's recommendation of using OW20 of most of vehicles.

If we too concerned about temperature ranges Sri Lanka, I don't see a much difference in our temperatures with the summer Temp of many countries. 

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6 minutes ago, iRage said:

so it is up to the owner of the car to decide what is more worth for him/her...longevity of the engine or saving a few LKR on fuel.

Seeing as both oils are recommended by the manufacturer, it all boils down to this. The added wear protection of the 30 grade oil or the fuel economy of the 20 grade oil, its up to the owner of the vehicle to decide.

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34 minutes ago, vitz said:

If one can share a graph showing the variation of the temperature of the engine after starting the vehicle, it will be a great help to relate Gayanath's interesting set of curves. Based on the facts presented by Gayanath, I too don't see a reason for deviating manufacturer's recommendation of using OW20 of most of vehicles.

If we too concerned about temperature ranges Sri Lanka, I don't see a much difference in our temperatures with the summer Temp of many countries. 

well..now...this just took things in a whole new direction..didn't it ? Well well Vitz...

Again....Gayanath himself said that he is only considering ONE aspect of it....unfortunately it is not something you can take a look at in one dimension. When you look at it holistically, his argument fails.It is not the local temperature of the Sri Lanka that is the issue...it is that plus the other factors. Because of the way we use cars...we need an oil that will maintain its properties at high temperatures....just try it....put a heavier oil just for one service and see how the car engine performs on long hauls or heavy traffic during the day time.

The user manuals only give specs to meet minimal functional specifications of the car. Which is why the same manuals ALSO always have caveats for using something different for different conditions or going with what the agent recommends. My 4A-GE Corolla  is supposed to get xW-20..but because of how I use it the Toyota dealer puts xW-40....

As I said before..my Camry had thin oil as per the manufacturers own recommendation...but on long drives it was problematic and during the summer the Toyota dealer went to a heavier oil (and this was in Utah where the heat in summer was not that bad). You should realize that the manufacturers recommendation is NOT what is ALWAYS best for the car. It will always say follow the recommendation given by the local agent. Manufacturers recommendations and even the standard parts are always set to meet minimal functional requirements to meet general usage claims. Manufacturers will say it is better to use better spec parts, fluids, etc...but they do not put them in the user manual because that would take away a lot of potential owners of the brand because they would perceive these cars too expensive to own.

Here is the owner manual for the Corolla Sport.....for a 1.2T. The recommended oils are 0W-20 or 5W-30...and it says 0W-20 is what the car comes with from the factory and is recommended for the highest fuel efficiency. There is a whole paragraph about how maintenance should be carried out by the nearest Toyota Dealer who will advice you on parts and services that your specific car requires. Now do not forget..this works for Japan where the car does not get used that much and even if it does..the traffic in 99% of the areas are a lot better than in Sri Lanka. Also..the Japanese maintenance manual does not have a lot of things that manuals of export models have (because a lot of them get covered under mandatory maintenance work for road worthy certifications)

image.thumb.png.91e652eebf9ab89e19ca229937e161c3.png

image.png.d6f840e56b23d94fc825728946b80268.png

 

Edited by iRage
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13 hours ago, gayanath said:

This chart make more sense in technically. 

4kCoW4x.png

 

Lets assume, in SL context,

Our engines runs 30 C to 90 C, then

0W20 - 50 cSt to 9 cSt (lets say by graph)

5W30 - 90 cSt to 14 cSt (lets say by graph)

0W40 - 110 cSt to 16 cSt (lets say by graph)

So, there is a point that, continuous running hot engines will be bit benefited by XXW40 while engines with start stop running with less average temperature (lets say average temperature 75 C because of stops and running) will be benefited by XXW20. (The average effect on the engine is more or less same with hot engine using XXW40)

 

Gayanath

The standard measure of oil viscosity by SAE refers that the last two digits of an oil refers to its viscosity at 100 Celcius. If we go with that there should be a quite a difference in viscosity between these oils at 100 c. Why such a narrow difference of viscosity @ 100 C between 20, 30 and 40 grades in the graph presented by you!!!!  (May be a silly question, as my knowledge about this subject is very narrow :0))

Edited by vitz

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12 hours ago, vitz said:

Gayanath

The standard measure of oil viscosity by SAE refers that the last two digits of an oil refers to its viscosity at 100 Celcius. If we go with that there should be a quite a difference in viscosity between these oils at 100 c. Why such a narrow difference of viscosity @ 100 C between 20, 30 and 40 grades in the graph presented by you!!!!  (May be a silly question, as my knowledge about this subject is very narrow :0))

🙂 its not a silly question .....

That is how the matter is formulated. Please go through below two tables. The difference is not huge. That's why you could use all three (20, 30 or 40) for same engine without any issue.

Manufactures recommendations are not only based on the safety of the engine components. They optimized it with reducing friction losses (ultimately thermal efficiency),  replacing intervals of lubrication, etc. In that overall aspects, they recommend most suitable one. 

I always telling this...... If some one need to maintain the engine perfectly,  he should replace engine oil every 1,000 km (or lets say 500 km 😂). Because, oil deterioration starts from the very first day you started using it. But we are not doing it. Why... ??  its not cost effective. This phenomena applies everywhere. 

Below two table shows the relationship with SAE number vs Viscosity.

image.png.45eb892eaaf8bca4e5e22d1aa1ef2709.png

image.thumb.png.c30f7a80b53396ad220119bfd93686c9.png

Edited by gayanath
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5 hours ago, gayanath said:

🙂 its not a silly question .....

That is how the matter is formulated. Please go through below two tables. The difference is not huge. That's why you could use all three (20, 30 or 40) for same engine without any issue.

Manufactures recommendations are not only based on the safety of the engine components. They optimized it with reducing friction losses (ultimately thermal efficiency),  replacing intervals of lubrication, etc. In that overall aspects, they recommend most suitable one. 

I always telling this...... If some one need to maintain the engine perfectly,  he should replace engine oil every 1,000 km (or lets say 500 km 😂). Because, oil deterioration starts from the very first day you started using it. But we are not doing it. Why... ??  its not cost effective. This phenomena applies everywhere. 

Below two table shows the relationship with SAE number vs Viscosity.

image.png.45eb892eaaf8bca4e5e22d1aa1ef2709.png

image.thumb.png.c30f7a80b53396ad220119bfd93686c9.png

thanks for the clarification. 

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I am pretty sure one of these days we are going to hear that the oil companies have put a hit out on Gayanath OR have awarded him a billion dollar fortune.

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On 1/24/2020 at 6:50 PM, iRage said:

You are wrong.....if you keep an engine running even at still..it keeps building heat. The car does not have to move for it to get hotter. The cooling system requires cool air entering and hitting the radiator....plus the fan...plus oil to actually absorb the heat. If the air does not hit the radiator...then the fan and oil does cool it up to a certain level and then it just gets too much for it to handle. If you do not trust me....feel free to leave your engine running in the hot heat for an indefinite period of time with the radiator blocked up...heck you can even drive with the radiator blocked and see what happens.... 

 

Sorry for late reply..... Let me elaborate further.....

A) Higher the speed ---------> Need Higher engine revelation 

B.) Higher the engine revelation -----------> higher fuel burn in unit time ---------> More heat generated

C) Higher the speed ----------> Higher the air drag --------------> higher the engine load ----------> Higher fuel burn at unit time ------> More heat generated

D) Higher the speed -----------> Higher the air flow --------------> higher the temperature difference of radiator surface  -------------> Good cooling 

Lets assume fan is working in same speed at every time,

What will happen, 

Case 1. If B and C > D, engine temperature goes up with higher speeds

Case 2 - if B and C < D, engine temperature going down with the higher speed. 

But in practical scenario, Case 1 is happening. Which means engine temperature going up with high speeds. 

 

Now lets assume, fan is not working, Then,

At huge traffic or very slow speeds, ----- > Heat dissipation from radiator is less (no fan, no air flow due to speed) ------> high chance for engine boiling

At moderate speeds --------> Heat dissipation is good due to high airflow due to speed (even no fan) ---------> less chance for engine boiling. 

At extremely high speeds -------------> Heat dissipation is good due to high airflow due to speed (even no fan), but more heat generating ----------> high chance for boiling. 

 

So, thick oil is good for long duration extreme speeds, but others having no big effect. 

Edited by gayanath

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Sorry...I cannot go through your explanation....it is confusing as hell (not surprising considering the conspiracy theories carried on by car/oil manufacturers you came up with in regards to oil changes and stuff)...like I said...if you are so confident in your deduction...just go ahead and put your money where your theory is :) keep your engine idling with the radiator blocked (or not) for a few hours in the heat with think oils and see the differences in knocking and the feel back you get when accelerating. I am telling you because I have had issues in UT ! In AUTUMN when the temperature was a cool 15 degrees Celsius and getting cooler as it was night. I was using the car's engine to keep some basic appliances in a cabin running and after an hour or so a friend of mine came in saying my Cherokee was making chucking noises...started using thicker oils and never had that issue after wards (thicker oil was used after the mechanic suggested it). Then there were the times my friends used to just run the car idling to charge dead batteries. When the car is standing still then it takes a longer time for the engine to get heated as an engine running for long periods.. but it still happens. In a city traffic scenario....sitting idling means hot exhaust and air from other cars also pump in to the engine bay; also, you do realise that after sometime the radiator fan is just going ot be blowing hot air n to the radiator in a car that is standing still right ?. So...why won't you put your theory to the test ? 

Again..talking to you about engine oil is just like talking to a 4 year old about eating less chocolate and ice cream. At the end of the day heavier oils have benefits than lighter oils in high temperature areas. That is a common thing everyone from the car manufacturers and and oil manufacturers themselves say.

Dont get me or some of the others wrong...we are not saying the engine will overheat. It takes a lot for modern cars to overheat. The car has been designed to instinctively stay within a certain heat range. That is achieved through a balance of block design (material used to the actual design of ribs etc), the air flow, coolant system and oil. When one gets compromised the other elements have to step up to compensate. The lighter oils thin out...when it thins out it will still keep cooling (albeit less efficiently) and you are probably never going to reach a point where it will stop absorbing heat; however, when the oil thins out its lubricating ability lowers down and you can feel it.

Edited by iRage

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1 hour ago, gayanath said:

Sorry for late reply..... Let me elaborate further.....

 

Your "elaboration" sounded like "because 2+2=4, Neel Armstrong was the first human on moon" 😳 

It definitely needs more elaboration but if the mild headache this elaboration gave me is any indication I'm sure your next elaboration could cause a full blown migrain attack 😖

 

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Oh its still going... 

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Isn't "revelation" something that Jesus gave to the world? 

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11 hours ago, Hyaenidae said:

Your "elaboration" sounded like "because 2+2=4, Neel Armstrong was the first human on moon" 😳 

It definitely needs more elaboration but if the mild headache this elaboration gave me is any indication I'm sure your next elaboration could cause a full blown migrain attack 😖

 

Actually its a continuation of previous discussions which we had regarding engine temperature, cooling effect at higher speeds, oil viscosity with oil temperature, etc.  Therefore,

2+2=4 ---------------> (___at previous discussions______) ----------------> Neel Armstrong was the first human on moon

Ha....ha.... Just kidding.....

 

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28 minutes ago, gayanath said:

Actually its a continuation of previous discussions which we had regarding engine temperature, cooling effect at higher speeds, oil viscosity with oil temperature, etc.  Therefore,

2+2=4 ---------------> (___at previous discussions______) ----------------> Neel Armstrong was the first human on moon

Ha....ha.... Just kidding.....

 

Armstrong = Armstrong...

Thus, Neil Amrstrong = Lance Armstrong...therefore Neil Armstrong went to the moon on a bike. Lance Armstrong won all the cycling races because his bicycle was rocket propelled (the actual rocket kind..not the steroid type)

Edited by iRage
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12 hours ago, iRage said:

At the end of the day heavier oils have benefits than lighter oils in high temperature areas. That is a common thing everyone from the car manufacturers and and oil manufacturers themselves say.

Agreed.... Its clear. No argument. Car manufacturers also recommending thicker oils (for same engine they are recommending low viscosity oils) for extreme cases as we discussed previously. But same time they are recommending same thinner oils for high temperature areas for normal operations. 

Are you agree for this simple formula?

Thicker the oil ----------> lower the risk for engine failure at higher operating temperatures (reduce the cost of failure)

Thicker the oil ----------> lower the fuel economy (or higher the fuel cost)

In the scenes of overall economy, what is the best? 

If the user need to use the vehicle for extreme requirements, definitely he has to ignore the fuel cost because of comparatively higher risk of failure. But our ordinary users who use the car for daily city travelling and occasionally travels in expressway for 20 to 50 minutes,  should we ignore the cost for minor risk of failure? 

Do higher ambient temperature a real risk than cost?

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1 minute ago, gayanath said:

Agreed.... Its clear. No argument. Car manufacturers also recommending thicker oils (for same engine they are recommending low viscosity oils) for extreme cases as we discussed previously. But same time they are recommending same thinner oils for high temperature areas for normal operations. 

Are you agree for this simple formula?

Thicker the oil ----------> lower the risk for engine failure at higher operating temperatures (reduce the cost of failure)

Thicker the oil ----------> lower the fuel economy (or higher the fuel cost)

In the scenes of overall economy, what is the best? 

If the user need to use the vehicle for extreme requirements, definitely he has to ignore the fuel cost because of comparatively higher risk of failure. But our ordinary users who use the car for daily city travelling and occasionally travels in expressway for 20 to 50 minutes,  should we ignore the cost for minor risk of failure? 

Do higher ambient temperature a real risk than cost?

Talking with you is like going around in circles then jumping around in random directions..then running back in to the circles....

Haven't we said it right at the beginning that the manufacturer's manual itself says thinner oils are recommended purely for fuel efficiency ? and the context is based on normal use ? Did we also not say that although thinner oils would increase fuel efficiency...using it in situations like in heavy traffic (like 95% of the ime in Colombo) would reduce engine longevity because the engine oil would thin out and lose its lubricating properties (thus showing signs of higher knocks from the engine) ?

So it is up to the owner to decide if the savings from the slight fuel efficiencies gained by thinner oil outweighs the cost of wear the car would under go as a result of thinner oils. For a new car being the first owner and planning to use it for 2 years might not make a difference..but the longer you keep it..the more significant the effect will be (don't forget...lesser lubrication means more wear on the engine components which implies lower fuel economy)

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