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Nuwanm

2013/14 CRV or a 2018 CHR G-T

Question

Hi All,

I am planning to buy a SUV crossover / SUV in coming months. I am thinking of 2013/14 CRV or a 2018 CHR G-T. I may drive this vehicle for about 2 - 3 yrs(i will be selling the vehicle on 2022 or 2023). My priorities of buying are

·         Less repairs (2013/14 CRV will have some repairs. But I heard it is reliable and may not have major issues)

·         Reselling market value

·         My budget would be 6-6.5 million LKR

I am not very much concerned about fuel efficiency. Appreciate your valuable ideas on this. 

Edited by Nuwanm

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Well....even the 2018 CHR I am guessing you are looking at buying used ?

Either car...as long asy ou find one that has been properly maintained and honest....the likely hood of them having any serious issues apart from running maintenance are quite low. Yes...the CRV is pretty good and has always been that way....reliable..decently put...gets the job done. The only thing that it sets apart from vehicles like the RAV4 and X-Trail is a matter of personal preference and the CRV has always been a little bit more luxurious feeling than the others.

The CHR too has been around for a while and so far has been pretty decent. 

I believe the CRV is a more practical vehicle to own....more storage space better space for passengers on long trips, etc...The CHR is a more youthful and funky vehicle. The CRV might be a little bit thirstier on fuel..If you go for an AWD variant...check for rear diff whine. CRVs have always had issues with it when poorly maintained.

The CHR being a lot newer will have more safety features and other gadgets which were not available a few years before whent he CRV you are looking at was being sold. So you won't get a lot of the active safety features like lane assist, auto braking, etc....but still for its time the CRV was pretty well rated for its safety.

If I am not mistaken quite a few of the CRV of the vintage you are looking at were bought down by the agent for permit holders....so you might even be luck enough to find one of those with a good maintenance history...(or even a one owner one).

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14 hours ago, iRage said:

Well....even the 2018 CHR I am guessing you are looking at buying used ?

Either car...as long asy ou find one that has been properly maintained and honest....the likely hood of them having any serious issues apart from running maintenance are quite low. Yes...the CRV is pretty good and has always been that way....reliable..decently put...gets the job done. The only thing that it sets apart from vehicles like the RAV4 and X-Trail is a matter of personal preference and the CRV has always been a little bit more luxurious feeling than the others.

The CHR too has been around for a while and so far has been pretty decent. 

I believe the CRV is a more practical vehicle to own....more storage space better space for passengers on long trips, etc...The CHR is a more youthful and funky vehicle. The CRV might be a little bit thirstier on fuel..If you go for an AWD variant...check for rear diff whine. CRVs have always had issues with it when poorly maintained.

The CHR being a lot newer will have more safety features and other gadgets which were not available a few years before whent he CRV you are looking at was being sold. So you won't get a lot of the active safety features like lane assist, auto braking, etc....but still for its time the CRV was pretty well rated for its safety.

If I am not mistaken quite a few of the CRV of the vintage you are looking at were bought down by the agent for permit holders....so you might even be luck enough to find one of those with a good maintenance history...(or even a one owner one).

Dear IRage, 

Thank you for the descriptive comment.

I was thinking of importing 2018 chr g-t.

Well I am not that concerned about newer safety features and gadgets that chr offers. And the funcky look made me bit worried too. 

My other concern is resell value as i am planning of selling it within 2 - 3 years. True the market chages rapidly . But what will be my best option among these two when it comes to reselling? 

One further question. Most 4th gen crvs available in SL, i have seen '4wd' badge on the back right side. Is this AWD?.  How to identify FWD option. 

Edited by Nuwanm

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Agent imported CRV will have 4WD badge and is 2.0L 5 speed torque converter auto

JDM 2.4 L with 5 speed torque converter auto came with AWD badge, identical system

JDM 2.0L with CVT if FWD as far as i know there is not much difference in the economy if driven in city

FWD 2.0L CVT is bit more economical in outstation and highway

I had a 2.0L brand new for 5 years ran for 60K km with only routine fluid / filter changes with the agents. They will run for 100-200k Km without any major issues if looked after.

Brand new ones had electric leather seats with lumbar support and are extremely comfortable. I have driven over 3-400km in a day without any fatigue.

They have already taken the initial depreciation so your chance of loosing money will be less compared to a new CHR which will take the initial hit when you sell in 2-3 years.

 

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1 hour ago, kush said:

Agent imported CRV will have 4WD badge and is 2.0L 5 speed torque converter auto

JDM 2.4 L with 5 speed torque converter auto came with AWD badge, identical system

JDM 2.0L with CVT if FWD as far as i know there is not much difference in the economy if driven in city

 

Dear kush, 

Thank you. So what i understood is something like this. Correct me if i am wrong pls. 

There are  three 4th gen crvs commonly available in SL. 

1. With 4WD badge - Agent imported CRV. 2.0L 5 speed torque converter auto

2. With AWD badge - JDM 2.4 L with 5 speed torque converter auto 

3. With FWD badge - JDM 2.0L with CVT 

I think my beat option would be the first one (with 4WD badge) as it is agent imported for permit holders (if it is with good maintenance history) as  iRage told

Edited by Nuwanm

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1 hour ago, Nuwanm said:

Dear kush, 

Thank you. So what i understood is something like this. Correct me if i am wrong pls. 

There are  three 4th gen crvs commonly available in SL. 

1. With 4WD badge - Agent imported CRV. 2.0L 5 speed torque converter auto

2. With AWD badge - JDM 2.4 L with 5 speed torque converter auto 

3. With FWD badge - JDM 2.0L with CVT 

I think my beat option would be the first one (with 4WD badge) as it is agent imported for permit holders (if it is with good maintenance history) as  iRage told

Absolutely although I'm not sure whether the FWD was ever badge as FWD, i believe it came without a badge.

All three models are ok and more or less the same car with different specs and trims.

 

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20 hours ago, iRage said:

..If you go for an AWD variant...check for rear diff whine. CRVs have always had issues with it when poorly maintained.

 

Dear iRage, do i need to worry about this rear diff thing if i am buying a 4WD one? 

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1 hour ago, kush said:

Absolutely although I'm not sure whether the FWD was ever badge as FWD, i believe it came without a badge.

All three models are ok and more or less the same car with different specs and trims.

 

Clear. Thank you very much. :)

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All-WHeel Drive/Real-Time All Wheel Drive/etc...all refer to different sub families of 4WD. 

Yes...listen to rear diff while in any 4WD vehicle...even if you buy a RAV4 or XTrail....listen to whine...check for oil leaks around the diff.

Do not go by badges to identify whether it is AWD or FF.

For JDM variants....

2.4L AWD model code was RM4. and the 2.0L FF was RM1.

To be honest...if you drive a 2.4 and then get in to a 2.0 variant..you feel that the 2.0 variant is sluggish....the 2.4 is much nicer (and easier) to drive :)

If you cannot be bothered with numbers....then...go to the rear of the car...get down on your knees...and then look under the car to see if there is a rear differential :) Having checked if there is a rear differential...check if there is a prop-shaft running from the front transfer case to the diff (in older AWD cars..people had a tendency to remove the prop shaft so that the rear does not work...they did it because the diff was broken and they did not want to fix it or tried to save money by converting it to a FF..it does not work that way). 

**if an AWD vehicle has e-Four (i.e. electronic 4wd), you will not see a prop shaft as what it will have is an electronic motor in the back. 

As for resale value.....yes....there is a myth that anything with a Toyota badge will get sold and that it is as good as gold. Do not count on that....any car as long as it has been well taken care of and is honest. It will get sold...we have had RAV4s and CRVs and had never had any trouble selling either off.

 

Edited by iRage
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As much as I have a soft spot for CHR (Maybe cos it looks like a stormtrooper and I'm a Star Wars fan) its not really utilitarian. It has a lot of curves and edges and the interior is a bit packed and maybe a little claustrophobic at the back. The CRV is proper Compact Suv :Practical and well put together. 

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True...the CRV is more practical and has more usability out of it...the CHR..nice and funky car...more form than function

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guys..

whats the practical difference in 4WD/AWD CR-V and 2WD CR-V ? 

im biased towards JDM models due to options they have and not finding a  JDM model with 4WD/AWD...the agent imported ones are having basic spec (no push start, retract  mirrors and cruise control)..

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You should take luxury tax of large engined vehicles

And the local agent is clueless when it comes to  JDM.

Edited by Twin Turbo

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1 hour ago, Twin Turbo said:

You should take luxury tax of large engined vehicles

And the local agent is clueless when it comes to  JDM.

but Im looking for a 2014 model...so the vehicle is in the final year luxury tax bracket

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Only 2.4L JDM came with 4WD/AWD only very few came to SL

If you want 4WD you need to settle for agent imported. after 2014 they were Thailand assembled and came with push start if it is a requirement.

 

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30 minutes ago, kush said:

Only 2.4L JDM came with 4WD/AWD only very few came to SL

If you want 4WD you need to settle for agent imported. after 2014 they were Thailand assembled and came with push start if it is a requirement.

 

Thanks Kush..I dont really need a 4WD and the guess CR-V is not a real 4WD vehicle...Need clarification whether the 4wd thing has anything to do with handling

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45 minutes ago, TheClutch said:

Thanks Kush..I dont really need a 4WD and the guess CR-V is not a real 4WD vehicle...Need clarification whether the 4wd thing has anything to do with handling

Not in my view it is basically FWD with drive to rear wheels if you loose grip on front wheels. very rarely this will happen is SL unless you put it on to sand or mud.

2012-2017 you could feel when 4WD kicks in which i noticed only on two occasions when i had the car. (5 years/ 60K km)

JDM 2.0L will have push start, but brand new will have leather electric seats only 2.4L JDM had them.

 

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13 hours ago, kush said:

Not in my view it is basically FWD with drive to rear wheels if you loose grip on front wheels. very rarely this will happen is SL unless you put it on to sand or mud.

2012-2017 you could feel when 4WD kicks in which i noticed only on two occasions when i had the car. (5 years/ 60K km)

JDM 2.0L will have push start, but brand new will have leather electric seats only 2.4L JDM had them.

 

I have said it before and i will say i again...a person who has not owned and driven an AWD variant of a RAV4 or a CRV or a CHR or any other cross over will not understand it nor will they get it. The AWD makes a HUGE difference. In fact these systems pretty much suck on anything more than a few inches of mud or sand but shine on windy and/or wet roads.  I have driven and used both AWD and 2WD RAV4s..you do feel the difference (granted you do have to give Toyota credit for having put a LSD in the 2WD variant)

That is absolutely NOT when the AWD will take over. Yes the rear wheels will get power when the front has slippage..that is not the only instance. In the RAV4 (and even in the CRV), the system is programmed to split the power under several circumstances....one is when the vehicle is starting off from a standstill (irrespective of the surface) the power will get split between front and rear. Some systems split power when it detects a change is traction/friction on the wheels (like what you said); but also when the vehicle is turning (difference in speed between inner and outter wheels). Some advanced systems (like the one in the RAV4 sport grade) actually tie it in with the VSC so that it splits power depending on the vehicle's yaw. 

@TheClutch...so yes...if you can find a good unit and can afford it..by all means do go for the AWD variant. It is much better at handling and you will love it in the rainy season or driving around on windy mountainous roads. The fuel consumption will not be that much worst than the 2WD variant either..you will be looking at about 1 kmpl difference. Now...if all you want is something that looks like a crossover but in fact is just an over grown station wagon for just for space and ground clearance...then yes go for the 2WD variant. 

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36 minutes ago, iRage said:

I have said it before and i will say i again...a person who has not owned and driven an AWD variant of a RAV4 or a CRV or a CHR or any other cross over will not understand it nor will they get it. The AWD makes a HUGE difference. In fact these systems pretty much suck on anything more than a few inches of mud or sand but shine on windy and/or wet roads.  I have driven and used both AWD and 2WD RAV4s..you do feel the difference (granted you do have to give Toyota credit for having put a LSD in the 2WD variant)

That is absolutely NOT when the AWD will take over. Yes the rear wheels will get power when the front has slippage..that is not the only instance. In the RAV4 (and even in the CRV), the system is programmed to split the power under several circumstances....one is when the vehicle is starting off from a standstill (irrespective of the surface) the power will get split between front and rear. Some systems split power when it detects a change is traction/friction on the wheels (like what you said); but also when the vehicle is turning (difference in speed between inner and outter wheels). Some advanced systems (like the one in the RAV4 sport grade) actually tie it in with the VSC so that it splits power depending on the vehicle's yaw. 

@TheClutch...so yes...if you can find a good unit and can afford it..by all means do go for the AWD variant. It is much better at handling and you will love it in the rainy season or driving around on windy mountainous roads. The fuel consumption will not be that much worst than the 2WD variant either..you will be looking at about 1 kmpl difference. Now...if all you want is something that looks like a crossover but in fact is just an over grown station wagon for just for space and ground clearance...then yes go for the 2WD variant. 

I totall agree with IRage. Just by monitoring the AWD operating information on the meter cluster we can understand this nice piece of technology!!!!  

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8 hours ago, vitz said:

I totall agree with IRage. Just by monitoring the AWD operating information on the meter cluster we can understand this nice piece of technology!!!!  

Well I have no experience in the RAV 4 but plenty on a CRV 4WD 2.0L it feels like a typical FWD car. I have driven the thing several times to Hatton and Nuwara Eliya in wet and dry and generally drive on the limits if there are no rear occupants (just to avoid them throwing up)

I do agree at certain points you feel the rears kick in when you are about to loose grip in the front but 2013 CRV do not balance FWD and RWD as other sophisticated systems.

Besides 150bhp or 185bhp or so is not enough to get you into trouble if you drive sensibly.

Only time it made bit useful was when I drove from Somawathi Stupa to Seruwavila via national reserve gravel road, my mothers Corolla141 too managed without much effort.

Only AWD which was significantly a different beast was my 1997 Nissan Sunny AWD. It came with Nissan Skyline system minus the electronics and was a joy to drive in the limit as it directed power to all wheels and the rear had multi link where as the stock FWD was torsion beam.

If you find a good 4WD CRV by all means go for it, it is the better car but in my view even if you opt for the 2WD you will get 90-95% (in SL context). Plus 2.0L FWD came with CVT which is marginally economical if it matters.

 

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On 12/8/2019 at 7:42 AM, iRage said:

 

Sometimes when I drive on twisty roads I fix my multi information display to AWD control mode. When I take a corner a bit faster,  I can see the power is split to all four wheels and handling becomes easier,  car feels well planted on the road and less body roll. Quite an experience. 

 

 

IMAG1092.jpg.6170697182f110d8220e1aa9df9ab331.jpg

Edited by sathyajithj99

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11 hours ago, sathyajithj99 said:

Sometimes when I drive on twisty roads I fix my multi information display to AWD control mode. When I take a corner a bit faster,  I can see the power is split to all four wheels and handling becomes easier,  car feels well planted on the road and less body roll. Quite an experience. 

 

 

IMAG1092.jpg.6170697182f110d8220e1aa9df9ab331.jpg

AWD is useful even when the road is wet and slippery specially during down pouring. Vehicle feels stable and planted. this is a First hand experienced on Vitara AWD.

Edited by Ruslan

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7 hours ago, kush said:

Well I have no experience in the RAV 4 but plenty on a CRV 4WD 2.0L it feels like a typical FWD car. I have driven the thing several times to Hatton and Nuwara Eliya in wet and dry and generally drive on the limits if there are no rear occupants (just to avoid them throwing up)

I do agree at certain points you feel the rears kick in when you are about to loose grip in the front but 2013 CRV do not balance FWD and RWD as other sophisticated systems.

Besides 150bhp or 185bhp or so is not enough to get you into trouble if you drive sensibly.

Only time it made bit useful was when I drove from Somawathi Stupa to Seruwavila via national reserve gravel road, my mothers Corolla141 too managed without much effort.

Only AWD which was significantly a different beast was my 1997 Nissan Sunny AWD. It came with Nissan Skyline system minus the electronics and was a joy to drive in the limit as it directed power to all wheels and the rear had multi link where as the stock FWD was torsion beam.

If you find a good 4WD CRV by all means go for it, it is the better car but in my view even if you opt for the 2WD you will get 90-95% (in SL context). Plus 2.0L FWD came with CVT which is marginally economical if it matters.

 

Again...this is something a person who has not had an AWD vehicle will ever understand. The fact that you were expecting it to feel any different to a FWD indicates that you have a misconception about these AWD systems. Many newbies to the system come in to dealerships saying their AWD systems do not work because they do not feel the system kicking in and wheels locking or say the system does not work 90% of the time so it is a simple waste of money.  But in reality the system works a lot more frequently than you would EVER think. I gave some of the thresholds the system kicks in...the road does not always have to be slippery or windy for the AWD system to work....the times the system goes full FWD is pretty much when the vehicle is just cruising in a highway without any excessive bends or turns.  I dare you to try to get the wheels to spin in an AWD CRV on at a trafic light when kicking off yet alone on a gravel surface. You can on a 2WD...but not in an AWD.  Similarly when you take the bends you do feel the difference in the vehicle''s sway and other signs. 

When you are driving these AWDs you are not going to feel any difference..it will be just like any other FWD car. The systems are designed in a non-interference sort of way and will not be visible to the driver (so no...you are not going to feel any wheels doing that snappy getting power feeling or anything of the sort unless in extreme circumstances). It is not like part-time 4WD systems (in Land Rovers, Land Cruisers, etc..) where you literally start feeling the wheels locked up and stuff when you pull in that lever. Far from it....it is never a fully all the time FWD and occasionally kicking the rear in scenario.  I have driven both a 2wd and AWD 1st and 2nd gen CRVs, AWD and 2WD Hiaces, Hilux Surfs, Fortuners and even a Corolla. It is the same thing...you do not feel any different than driving a FWD but there is a huge difference in how the car handles. Yes.. a sedan can make up gravel roads...even on snow (I drove a Camry in Utah with mountainous valley roads and 3-4 inch snow blankets around town)....but how the vehicle handles and the effort the car has to put in are completely different.  The speed and instability your mothers 141 would have felt at a bend would be far less than an AWD CRV. If you thikn hat a 141 can actually accelerate on a gravel road better than an AWD CRV..then...well you are suggesting that Toyota's FWD system is better than Honda's crappy AWD system. Never is the case.

@TheClutch...by all means...if you can afford an AWD CRV over a 2WD CRV..buy it ! It is worth it ! Not sure if it makes a difference..but the AWD RAV4s seem to hold much better value than the 2WD RAV4s (but then there weren't many around as well). Whether you should go for a AWD CHR over a 2WD CRV....well that can only be answered by you. Whilst the AWD system in the CHR will be useful, the CRV is a much better practical car than the CHR .The CRV has better space utilization, roomier cabin, better visibility, etc...; so whether you want to give up these attributes and go for a CHR just for the AWD system is up to you.

As for the Sunny..well...a Skyline's cut down AWD system is the common AWD system used for almost all other Nissan AWD vehicles.  It is pretty much the same AWD system that was there with the  X-Trail and other cars like the wagons. Albeit different thresholds of engagement. The Skyline was this AWD system on steroids and additional controllable elements built-in.  So you can also say that the E90 AWD has a trimmed down variant of the Celica GT-Four :). The Corolla van back had a full-time 80:20 split (70:30) ...just like the Celica...and the 1st gen RAV4  :) 

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Found this video comparing the AWD system of CRVs (3rd gen, 4th gen and 5th gen) the OP might find it useful to decide on whether he needs an AWD vehicle..

Quite surprisingly the 4th gen system doesn't seem to be as effective as the 3rd gen or the 5th gen

Edited by Dee Jay

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15 hours ago, iRage said:

Again...this is something a person who has not had an AWD vehicle will ever understand. The fact that you were expecting it to feel any different to a FWD indicates that you have a misconception about these AWD systems. Many newbies to the system come in to dealerships saying their AWD systems do not work because they do not feel the system kicking in and wheels locking or say the system does not work 90% of the time so it is a simple waste of money.  But in reality the system works a lot more frequently than you would EVER think. I gave some of the thresholds the system kicks in...the road does not always have to be slippery or windy for the AWD system to work....the times the system goes full FWD is pretty much when the vehicle is just cruising in a highway without any excessive bends or turns.  I dare you to try to get the wheels to spin in an AWD CRV on at a trafic light when kicking off yet alone on a gravel surface. You can on a 2WD...but not in an AWD.  Similarly when you take the bends you do feel the difference in the vehicle''s sway and other signs. 

When you are driving these AWDs you are not going to feel any difference..it will be just like any other FWD car. The systems are designed in a non-interference sort of way and will not be visible to the driver (so no...you are not going to feel any wheels doing that snappy getting power feeling or anything of the sort unless in extreme circumstances). It is not like part-time 4WD systems (in Land Rovers, Land Cruisers, etc..) where you literally start feeling the wheels locked up and stuff when you pull in that lever. Far from it....it is never a fully all the time FWD and occasionally kicking the rear in scenario.  I have driven both a 2wd and AWD 1st and 2nd gen CRVs, AWD and 2WD Hiaces, Hilux Surfs, Fortuners and even a Corolla. It is the same thing...you do not feel any different than driving a FWD but there is a huge difference in how the car handles. Yes.. a sedan can make up gravel roads...even on snow (I drove a Camry in Utah with mountainous valley roads and 3-4 inch snow blankets around town)....but how the vehicle handles and the effort the car has to put in are completely different.  The speed and instability your mothers 141 would have felt at a bend would be far less than an AWD CRV. If you thikn hat a 141 can actually accelerate on a gravel road better than an AWD CRV..then...well you are suggesting that Toyota's FWD system is better than Honda's crappy AWD system. Never is the case.

@TheClutch...by all means...if you can afford an AWD CRV over a 2WD CRV..buy it ! It is worth it ! Not sure if it makes a difference..but the AWD RAV4s seem to hold much better value than the 2WD RAV4s (but then there weren't many around as well). Whether you should go for a AWD CHR over a 2WD CRV....well that can only be answered by you. Whilst the AWD system in the CHR will be useful, the CRV is a much better practical car than the CHR .The CRV has better space utilization, roomier cabin, better visibility, etc...; so whether you want to give up these attributes and go for a CHR just for the AWD system is up to you.

As for the Sunny..well...a Skyline's cut down AWD system is the common AWD system used for almost all other Nissan AWD vehicles.  It is pretty much the same AWD system that was there with the  X-Trail and other cars like the wagons. Albeit different thresholds of engagement. The Skyline was this AWD system on steroids and additional controllable elements built-in.  So you can also say that the E90 AWD has a trimmed down variant of the Celica GT-Four :). The Corolla van back had a full-time 80:20 split (70:30) ...just like the Celica...and the 1st gen RAV4  :) 

In real world situations specially in SL difference between AWD and FWD does not matter much. Unless you use slippery gravel roads up country estates. Most of them are used in towns to do day to day commutes of a sedan.

CRV will not send power to rear wheels unless it detects traction in front wheels. I have experience this on aggressive starts, in sand, going up hill in gravel. It will not spin the wheels but you will feel this for a split second though the steering and transfer of torque to the rear wheels.

I have also managed to get stuck in the CRV trying to negotiate a slippery hill so it is not bullet proof. But it gives you that extra bit of confidence when driving at the limits which most of the owners would not do.

Personally i would opt for the AWD given the choice as it will give me that extra bit of traction in the corners and in wet. But will be happy with any FWD / RWD only you need to take it bit easy when the conditions are not in your favor as not one can defy laws of physics.

 

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1 hour ago, kush said:

In real world situations specially in SL difference between AWD and FWD does not matter much. Unless you use slippery gravel roads up country estates. Most of them are used in towns to do day to day commutes of a sedan.

CRV will not send power to rear wheels unless it detects traction in front wheels. I have experience this on aggressive starts, in sand, going up hill in gravel. It will not spin the wheels but you will feel this for a split second though the steering and transfer of torque to the rear wheels.

I have also managed to get stuck in the CRV trying to negotiate a slippery hill so it is not bullet proof. But it gives you that extra bit of confidence when driving at the limits which most of the owners would not do.

Personally i would opt for the AWD given the choice as it will give me that extra bit of traction in the corners and in wet. But will be happy with any FWD / RWD only you need to take it bit easy when the conditions are not in your favor as not one can defy laws of physics.

 

Again.this itself shows that you are inexperienced with AWD....no...it is useful a lot more than in just country roads. It is useful in day to day driving even in the city and even in the rain. It does send power to the rear wheels. I have had 3 generations of CRVs and they all have. You feel it when you do aggressive starts but it still does send it...it is just that depending on the system the amount of wheel spin the system would allow for the front wheels defer. In fact in some of the simpler AWD systems that had all these wierd switches for settings..all those did was change this threshold. AWD systems are never bullet proof...there are limits. At the end of the day most of these systems have open diffs and locking is electronically simulated. So under extreme conditions or when certain combinations of wheels lose traction..the system is just going to be happily spinning its wheels in one place thinking the car is actually moving....worst yet..sometimes the power does not even get to any of the wheels except the one that is slipping :) Like I said..these AWD systems are more useful in the city than anything slightly more than normal. 

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