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New Defender Design??

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Thoughts on the new defender?

2020-Land-Rover-Defender-50-highlights.jpg

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Looks fatter and less rugged, albeit with some original curves. Similar to old vs new-mini redesign?

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Rather ugly, but I like it anyway. A bit like our eldest in that way, bless him.

Just going by it’s looks, I wonder whether it will cannibalise sales from the discovery. Then again the new discovery 5 makes my eyeballs hurt...

Edited by ShintaroX

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Looks are subjective, but I LOVE it.!!

Interior design is freaking awesome from what I’ve seen on videos, great blend of ruggedness/simplicity/practicality with technology mixed in. Definitely on the ‘G Wagon’ side of the rugged 4WD spectrum as opposed to the Jeep Wrangler.

And some of the numbers are just mental as well, see below compared to the Toyota Prado.!!

  • Towing – 3500KG (Prado – 3000KG?)
  • Payload – 900 Kg, that`s carrying almost a ton at the back!  😯 (Prado 665KG)
  • Roof rack – 300KG
  • Wading depth – 90CM – that`s driving though water almost a meter deep without affecting the car or factory warranty.! Pretty crazy for a stock car! (Prado 70cm)
  • Monocoque chassis with almost 3 times the structural rigidity of a ladder chassis as claimed by LR!  All independent suspension.

Looks like LR has spent the time/effort/money on the design and gone all out with this one, but as with most LR products, long term reliability could be iffy.  😕

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1 hour ago, MrCat said:

Looks are subjective, but I LOVE it.!!

Interior design is freaking awesome from what I’ve seen on videos, great blend of ruggedness/simplicity/practicality with technology mixed in. Definitely on the ‘G Wagon’ side of the rugged 4WD spectrum as opposed to the Jeep Wrangler.

And some of the numbers are just mental as well, see below compared to the Toyota Prado.!!

  • Towing – 3500KG (Prado – 3000KG?)
  • Payload – 900 Kg, that`s carrying almost a ton at the back!  😯 (Prado 665KG)
  • Roof rack – 300KG
  • Wading depth – 90CM – that`s driving though water almost a meter deep without affecting the car or factory warranty.! Pretty crazy for a stock car! (Prado 70cm)
  • Monocoque chassis with almost 3 times the structural rigidity of a ladder chassis as claimed by LR!  All independent suspension.

Looks like LR has spent the time/effort/money on the design and gone all out with this one, but as with most LR products, long term reliability could be iffy.  😕

Looks a bit too plush and techie for me...the LR Defender, much like the LC 70 series, was supposed to be simplistic which contributed to its capability and usability (even if the thing broke down in the middle of no where you could fix it with a hammer and a rubber band :D ).

Comparing the LR Defender to a Prado is a bit imbalanced. The Prado is supposed to be a off-road capable wagon. Not a full fledged rugged, where ever you want to go off-roader like the Defender (a better comparison for the Prado would be a Discovery ?). If you compare the Defender against the LC70 then the figres match up.

LC 70:

Towing : 3500kg

Payload : 1200kg

Wading Depth : 70cm (stock intake, with the optional factory fitted intake snorkel it goes up to 80 something)

Now..payload.....be very wary about what manufacturers say about Payload. The payload is defined as the total weight of passenger, cargo and ancillaries a vehicle can safely carry. So if the manufacturer says payload is 1200....when you add the weight of all the seat heaters, stereos, and other bells and whistles, spare tires, roof rack boxes that the manufacturer themselves offer; plus adjustments for fuel weight, the actual payload you can carry reduces drastically.  The LC 70 series has a payload of 1200kg....in the wagon, depending on the spec, that goes down to about 950 or a bit more....but the pickup variant, with the heavy truck bed in the back the usable payload goes down to about 900 (and that is if you get the optional aluminium truck bed)

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59 minutes ago, iRage said:

Looks a bit too plush and techie for me...the LR Defender, much like the LC 70 series, was supposed to be simplistic which contributed to its capability and usability (even if the thing broke down in the middle of no where you could fix it with a hammer and a rubber band :D ).

Comparing the LR Defender to a Prado is a bit imbalanced. The Prado is supposed to be a off-road capable wagon. Not a full fledged rugged, where ever you want to go off-roader like the Defender (a better comparison for the Prado would be a Discovery ?). If you compare the Defender against the LC70 then the figres match up.

LC 70:

Towing : 3500kg

Payload : 1200kg

Wading Depth : 70cm (stock intake, with the optional factory fitted intake snorkel it goes up to 80 something)

Now..payload.....be very wary about what manufacturers say about Payload. The payload is defined as the total weight of passenger, cargo and ancillaries a vehicle can safely carry. So if the manufacturer says payload is 1200....when you add the weight of all the seat heaters, stereos, and other bells and whistles, spare tires, roof rack boxes that the manufacturer themselves offer; plus adjustments for fuel weight, the actual payload you can carry reduces drastically.  The LC 70 series has a payload of 1200kg....in the wagon, depending on the spec, that goes down to about 950 or a bit more....but the pickup variant, with the heavy truck bed in the back the usable payload goes down to about 900 (and that is if you get the optional aluminium truck bed)

 

The Prado comparison was just for numbers, since it is a popular well known choice in SL.

The reality is that the market for simple and rugged is almost dead, the 70 series sales are dropping even in Australia where ‘simple and rugged’ is/was still sell-able and emissions/safety standards are quite lenient compared to Europe etc..

Emissions/safety standards and customer expectations are causing manufactures to slap technology in. No one in their right mind would spend $50k+ on a new 4WD, rugged or not, without things like: a couple of LCD screens, autonomous braking, lane assist, trailer assist, etc.. these days. Enthusiasts would like em` simple, but no one actually buys them. Just like the current sports car market. Every enthusiast would like a simple RWD sports car, but not many buys them after a manufacturer has spent a billion to design, build and market. :D 

I don’t think LR is really catering the ‘simple and rugged’ market here, though the old Defender was in that class. It`s just a small niche they won’t be able to cater without military contracts, fleet sales etc… They are trying to cash in on the SUV craze with a practical all-rounder product placed more towards the ‘rugged’ end, with luxury mixed in.

Agree about the Payload figures. I still think 900KG is a pretty good number for something this size, without a truck chassis (i.e. ladder frame) and solid axles (and associated handling + ride issues on road).

 

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3 minutes ago, MrCat said:

No one in their right mind would spend $50k+ on a new 4WD, rugged or not, without things like: a couple of LCD screens, autonomous braking, lane assist, trailer assist, etc..

Couldn't disagree more with you mate, there is still a market for true rugged 4WD's out there albeit not here in SL. you don't want 85 ECU that are waiting to fail on a remote trail on Aussie outback or on an African game trail. Peoples lives depend on these vehicles. Sure it's not a huge market like the mall crawlers have in US or Europe and even SL, but people still use these quite often.

Look at the little Jimny, not a massive offroading truck but its an honest 4WD which is quite nimble and capable. It's quite popular in the Scandinavia just because it's simple and practical in tricky conditions.

As I see, the real reason they opted to soften the defender was LR has already lost the edge on ruggedness and reliability many ears ago. LR got wiped out from Africa and Australia by Toyota and Middle east was taken over by Nissan. As pretty as they are to the eye, reliability records say a different story. JLR is trying to sell another range rover disguised in defender clothing, only time will tell if they succeed. 

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1 hour ago, alds said:

Couldn't disagree more with you mate, there is still a market for true rugged 4WD's out there albeit not here in SL. you don't want 85 ECU that are waiting to fail on a remote trail on Aussie outback or on an African game trail. Peoples lives depend on these vehicles. Sure it's not a huge market like the mall crawlers have in US or Europe and even SL, but people still use these quite often.

Look at the little Jimny, not a massive offroading truck but its an honest 4WD which is quite nimble and capable. It's quite popular in the Scandinavia just because it's simple and practical in tricky conditions.

As I see, the real reason they opted to soften the defender was LR has already lost the edge on ruggedness and reliability many ears ago. LR got wiped out from Africa and Australia by Toyota and Middle east was taken over by Nissan. As pretty as they are to the eye, reliability records say a different story. JLR is trying to sell another range rover disguised in defender clothing, only time will tell if they succeed. 

 

Yes, there is a market, but that market is NOT big or profitable enough for manufactures to warrant designing and building a product that they CANT sell for the rest of the world (i.e. won’t meet customer needs, market trends or safety/emissions standards). Yes, people use old-school cars and may continue to do so, but manufactures won’t be "developing" any NEW models with old technology, because they can’t sell enough.

I don’t know about the Africa (that is NOT a viable market for new cars anyway, they get dumped with used rubbish from rest of the world so they get plenty of old school cars/4WD`s). But I live in Australia and not even mining companies are buying 70 series`s these days. The best sold car in Australia (out of everything, not just 4WD`s) is the Hilux and that`s got most of the modern technology.  

The Jimny is mostly a halo car for them, and Suzuki probably would do OK in recouping the R&D costs because they just slapped a new body on the old chassis (almost) without spending much on drive-train + chassis development. I agree it`ll do well in small European/Japanese cities or even Scandinavia where bigger/more polluting cars are heavily taxed. It is cheap to run and good fun off-road. But an absolute joke in everything else (serious off-roading where ground clearance and power is required, safely, highway driving, practicality etc..) . I`ve owned the previous generation Jimny and did plenty off-roading with it. 

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2 hours ago, MrCat said:

Yes, people use old-school cars and may continue to do so, but manufactures won’t be "developing" any NEW models with old technology, because they can’t sell enough.

Yes, that is true. We won't see any more new vehicle models with old technology again. Current iteration will be phased out sooner or later. Even toyota is not updating the LC70 design to even out the track width difference in front and rear probably because they have no plans to continue it.

I was in Australia in 2017 and did some tracks along Anne beadell highway and some in Kimberley, almost all the vehicles were 70 series dual cabs and troop carriers, hence my comment on the outback. 

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For me this is Too much sensors to fail. i like the simplicity of the Old Animal. not this Computer gizmodo. love the new Jimny Siera, oh well they thought other wise with the New Vitara, which doesn't even related to old Mule. Sad!.

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It is a sad state that the world has lost its ability to be simple. So these manufacturers really cannot make a off-roader without using a zilliion sensors and letting a computer take care of it ? Simple does not mean we sacrifice safety...but then giving a computer controlled 4wd system to a moron who knows nothing about off-roading and thinks his car is going to keep him alive on tough trail by it self is a safety risk. Yes....things like autonomous braking, etc..are nice and useful and required and as most models have shown these features can be taken off depending on the market segment in question. However, did the drive mechanism really need such electroniification ? The reassurance of pulling on your transfer case ever and feeling that and hearing that slight clunk of a lock is very reassuring.

Africa gets the old junk due to economic reasons. But when mining companies, the UN/Projects, government wants no non-sence off roaders we still buy the simple 70 series or the stripped down base versions of the Prado or LC 200 (the latter two still has a few ECUs driving them but at least the suspension, etc..are still normal) OR we simply go for the Fortuner or Pajero or Pajero Sport (especially the P. Sport). So in many ways Toyota, Nissan and MItsubishi have been some what lucky enough to have the financial means to have different products for different markets which covers all bases.

As for the 70...in May of this year there were indications that Toyota will have a replacement for the 70. At the time the statement was that the power trains would change (to meet emission standards) with the same type of rugged drive train the 70 was known for whilst shortcomings in the different NCAP tests will be addressed (so I am guessing this means they will do better on fixing things like the appauling small-overlap results, moderate side and roof protection results....plus they might put in some active safety features. The old school drive train Toyota would still have under its belt because everything from the Hilux to the Fortuner and the small Hino trucks use it (albeit with an electronic switch in some). The wider front tread width and the shorter rear thread with is a result of the V8 engines....they just never bothered to change the rear.....

Edited by iRage
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LR got the idea for new Defender from the Honda Element...

Image result for honda element

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14 minutes ago, Magnum said:

LR got the idea for new Defender from the Honda Element...

 

@Roshan321

Edited by ajm

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6 hours ago, Magnum said:

LR got the idea for new Defender from the Honda Element...

Image result for honda element

Dang....!!! I have to share this on my FB..

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15 hours ago, iRage said:

It is a sad state that the world has lost its ability to be simple. So these manufacturers really cannot make a off-roader without using a zilliion sensors and letting a computer take care of it ?

 

Interesting discussion, and I agree. 

I believe there`s a massive social aspect to this as well, not just technical. It`s like the shift from manual transmissions to automatics. People just don’t know or care about fixing things any longer. They mostly don’t care about how things work either, as long as it just works! Anyone who drove 4WD`s few decades ago knew exactly what the transfer-case (Hi – Lo gearing) and hub locks did. They may not have known how they worked internally, but they knew how it worked and when to use it. This is not relevant anymore, especially in the developed world where people are not exposed to older stuff/technology much.

No one (I am talking about the common ‘person’ here, not all) is really willing to learn or go through the trouble of understanding how things work, yet alone fixing things when they break! So when people are not willing to ‘fix’ things, manufactures opt to design and build things to ‘replace’ when broken. i.e. why spend 10 hours pulling apart a gearbox for a broken 1st gear when the whole unit can be built cheaper and replaced? But there are so many variables here in place for each concept to be viable: complete module cost against parts cost, operational life, labour cost, self-diagnostic capabilities, etc….

Imagine young (i.e. 20-30 year old?) farmers in outback Australia these days. I am willing to bet that a larger percentage of them would NOT want to muck around in a noisy, bouncy 70 series, crunching gears in 40 degree heat IF given the choice of a newer/automated car.  They most probably would not want to pull apart a broken differential either, rather pay a dealer to diagnose issues or have Roadside Assistance for breakdowns. And they certainly wont care much about operating a transfer case manually, may as well just select the 'terrain' and let the car do the work. Just the way 'most' modern people wants to do things now. 

I really think that modern electro-mechanical machines would become better If/When:

1.)    Self-diagnostic capabilities improve. Still quite basic and not good enough in most modern cars IMHO.

2.)    Parts cost, especially complete unit/component costs come down due to: better component/module sharing among different models of cars, efficient manufacturing, etc...

3.)  Component life increase due to : better design/manufacturing,  better materials, etc... 

 

 

Edited by MrCat

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Starting price of GBP 35-40K is lot for a car even considering UK standards. The real use of these vehicles are enjoyed by 3-4th owner after about 8-10 years (over 100k mileage) sadly by that time all the electronics what not will be half gone and the vehicle will become a money pit to maintain.

This goes even for Toyota when they replaced 100 series

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16 hours ago, Magnum said:

LR got the idea for new Defender from the Honda Element...

when I first saw the new defender my initial thought was it looked like an offering from Honda or Kia .... :D 

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22 hours ago, MrCat said:

 

Interesting discussion, and I agree. 

I believe there`s a massive social aspect to this as well, not just technical. It`s like the shift from manual transmissions to automatics. People just don’t know or care about fixing things any longer. They mostly don’t care about how things work either, as long as it just works! Anyone who drove 4WD`s few decades ago knew exactly what the transfer-case (Hi – Lo gearing) and hub locks did. They may not have known how they worked internally, but they knew how it worked and when to use it. This is not relevant anymore, especially in the developed world where people are not exposed to older stuff/technology much.

No one (I am talking about the common ‘person’ here, not all) is really willing to learn or go through the trouble of understanding how things work, yet alone fixing things when they break! So when people are not willing to ‘fix’ things, manufactures opt to design and build things to ‘replace’ when broken. i.e. why spend 10 hours pulling apart a gearbox for a broken 1st gear when the whole unit can be built cheaper and replaced? But there are so many variables here in place for each concept to be viable: complete module cost against parts cost, operational life, labour cost, self-diagnostic capabilities, etc….

Imagine young (i.e. 20-30 year old?) farmers in outback Australia these days. I am willing to bet that a larger percentage of them would NOT want to muck around in a noisy, bouncy 70 series, crunching gears in 40 degree heat IF given the choice of a newer/automated car.  They most probably would not want to pull apart a broken differential either, rather pay a dealer to diagnose issues or have Roadside Assistance for breakdowns. And they certainly wont care much about operating a transfer case manually, may as well just select the 'terrain' and let the car do the work. Just the way 'most' modern people wants to do things now. 

I really think that modern electro-mechanical machines would become better If/When:

1.)    Self-diagnostic capabilities improve. Still quite basic and not good enough in most modern cars IMHO.

2.)    Parts cost, especially complete unit/component costs come down due to: better component/module sharing among different models of cars, efficient manufacturing, etc...

3.)  Component life increase due to : better design/manufacturing,  better materials, etc... 

 

 

Agree...but we have to wonder about several things

1. Yes..it is understandable that LR went with all the gadgets and gizmos to appeal to a new consumer base and also a to a group of people who just use the LRs for shopping runs but now want to do it in luxury. But they should also consider the market where people want something simple that runs and works well in hard environments and easy to keep running in these environments. As far as I know you only get the option with a simpler suspension system, but not an old fashioned 4wd system. 

2. Consumerism....Manufacturers need people to "buy"; without products being bought they would slowly seize to exist. So one has to wonder if the manufacturers have an incentive to manufacturer components that can be fixed and products that have an internal life span (well...really really long). Add to this the ever reducing resources (raw materials wise). Now manufacturers need these vehicles and its components back in the crusher to be scrapped out so that what ever that can be reused can be used.

3. Automation......This applies to everything....are we as a human race going in the right direction ? Yes...the world has changed and automation of tasks of a process enables the human to engage more on the knowledge and creative aspects of the process. However, we as a species have clearly shown time and time again that we have just become dumber. The young farmer boy out in the outback farming and wanting to do it in a luxurious off-roader is understandable...I have nothing against that...but don't you think this new farm boy is reluctant to fix things because society told him it was not worth fixing things ? Just like in many parts of the world children are under the belief that they do not need to know how and why math works because calculators do things for you (Yes you do not need to do the actual task...but learning some of the principals behind math has positive side consequences of teaching and training one's brain in doing things like being logical...)

4. (sort of  same as 3) I do believe that in certain things in life you need to know how things work...not knowing would be a matter of life and death. Automation all the way from the actual tasks to the decision making processes of all the elements involved is still not there yet. So until a level of total and complete automation (we are talking about at the level of actual AI here) then some things should not be automated just so that humans do not mess up.

 

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What ever discussion there is I'm still waiting to see its off-roadability and see if it better than the legendary Defender.. Or NOT..

Something like..

 

 

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On 9/10/2019 at 7:32 PM, 808 said:

Thoughts on the new defender?

2020-Land-Rover-Defender-50-highlights.jpg

Looks like something from the fast and furious films. That means there should be a market.

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On 9/10/2019 at 7:32 PM, 808 said:

Thoughts on the new defender?

2020-Land-Rover-Defender-50-highlights.jpg

as i know now this company own buy indian tata , so last year they had 1000 of reliability issues m pretty sure this new model also same

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7 minutes ago, dtrum said:

as i know now this company own buy indian tata , so last year they had 1000 of reliability issues m pretty sure this new model also same

JLR did have quality issues in the early 2000s. But after the change of ownership in 2008, things have improved quite a lot. In terms of new models, innovation, and of course quality

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6 hours ago, ajm said:

JLR did have quality issues in the early 2000s. But after the change of ownership in 2008, things have improved quite a lot. In terms of new models, innovation, and of course quality

there are thousands youtube automobile experts said about reliability issues,even in srilankan very difficult to find 20 years old land rover on roads,there is some common  statement in australia “if you want to go to jungle go with land rover but if you want to come back go with land cruiser 

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12 minutes ago, dtrum said:

if you want to come back go with land cruiser 

Recalls are a common thing for Automakers these days, even Toyota is not immune as shown by the issues in 2008 (Accel Pedal SW) and 2012 (Prius). The problem is the Defender can go to places a LC cant, due to off-road capability limits. They are different segements.

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On 9/16/2019 at 8:22 PM, ajm said:

Recalls are a common thing for Automakers these days, even Toyota is not immune as shown by the issues in 2008 (Accel Pedal SW) and 2012 (Prius). The problem is the Defender can go to places a LC cant, due to off-road capability limits. They are different segements.

i can’t agree with some point, yeah prius is not a reliability vehicle because that concept design for fuel economy and environment friendly, land cruiser is legendary reliability vehicles, even 20/30 years old vehicles still on the road(without issues).and i don’t believe is there any place defender can reach but lc can’t ???

its impossible because lots off middle east ppl and UN ppl ,africans using land cruiser for daily running,they are the ppl who reach to the most rural areas in the world.

 

Edited by dtrum

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