Used hybrid or non hybrid car market

[Jason_Bourne]

On 8/1/2018 at 11:19 PM, iRage said:

As most of the time....you missed the point ! What is funny is you missed the point of the research you yourself sited. 

You quite authoritatively stated that Hybrid cars are not popular even in their home countries. I was stating that you were talking BS...because Hybrid cars are actually popular in the home country of Japan. Even your research states that Hybrids are popular in Japan !!! When you were bashing Hybrids in SL stating they were not popular in their home countries, you WERE referring to Japanese cars because it is not like we have American or European Hybrids all over the roads !  I didn't read the research paper in detail but through a quick read it had aimed to shows that TCO has a link between adoption rate (something we all knew but the research puts evidence behind it)..but doesn't say anything about the actual market share itself ? In the discussion section they start to discuss the popularity of Hybrids and other factors that drive it ?

Irrespective of the TCO (which we all agree is what matters) it doesn't change the fact that the Hybrids ARE POPULAR. So your pundit statement that Hybrids are not popular in their home country is you just putting in your own unfounded 2 cents. Check the sales figures, etc...heck..read your the research you yourself pointed out.

In Japan, pure gasoline cars are market leaders because of kei cars...because...kei cars have a low TCO (including being entitled to same co tax allowances as hybrids and actually getting preferential breaks for everything from shaken costs to parking and road tolls.

 

I thought we were building constructive arguments on Hybrid vs Non-Hybrid cars. That's the only reason I linked that research which I'm pretty sure you didn't even bother to read.

Seems you "iRage" and "matroska" are Hybrid owners who got fooled by car sales back in 2012/13! Now seeing the real depreciation of your cars every time when some talks about it you guys get paranoid.

Hybrids are NOT popular in their home markets and owning a Hybrid more than 4+ or 5+ years will cause you to lose everything you saved on fuel. They were hitting sales targets just cause the hype of new technology. But when the market matures everybody recognizes the real situation they got in to.
That research proves it by comparing most industrialized markets. Sri Lanka with much less access to tech will definitely be something worse.  

Edited August 6, 2018 by Jason_Bourne

[iRage]

On 8/1/2018 at 4:35 PM, Jason_Bourne said:

Exactly! 
There won't be any 10+ year old Hybrids in non of the markets worldwide (even in Japan). 
For comparison a Toyota 121 which is close to 20 years old still goes over 3 mill LKR!

You might not know this (but then again...you do talk a whole lot about things you don't know with quite some authority)...you don't get many normal cars that are 10+ years old either in Japan.  Older the car is the higher the taxes become.

[iRage]

2 hours ago, Jason_Bourne said:

I thought we were building constructive arguments on Hybrid vs Non-Hybrid cars. That's the only reason I linked that research which I'm pretty sure you didn't even bother to read.

Seems you "iRage" and "matroska" are Hybrid owners who got fooled by car sales back in 2012/13! Now seeing the real depreciation of your cars every time when some talks about it you guys get paranoid.

Hybrids are NOT popular in their home markets and owning a Hybrid more than 4+ or 5+ years will cause you to lose everything you saved on fuel. They were hitting sales targets just cause the hype of new technology. But when the market matures everybody recognizes the real situation they got in to.
That research proves it by comparing most industrialized markets. Sri Lanka with much less access to tech will definitely be something worse.  

Highlight 1: As always..you are talking and presuming stuff you know nothing about with self proclaimed "punditness". I do not own a Hybrid...and never have....but that is mainly because of my preference for cars are. My father in law in Japan does have a Aqua he bought 4 years ago....and no..no doom and gloom like you claim. 

Highlight 2: Considering the fact that I LIVE in and am BASED out of Japan...I call your BS on this ! The Hybrid system warranty is 5 years for most cases and then extended to 3 years upon purchase (sometimes FOC sometimes as an addition). So the support system is there for Hybrid cars older than 4+ years. There are quite a few Prius and Axio taxis now 5+ years old with more than 200K on them....in Japan people get rid of cars in 2-3 years cycles for other reasons. The older the car is the higher the taxes and cost of Shaken inspections are.  So..you know nothing about the Japanese market..so when you talk about "home" markets..please qualify it as the European or American markets...because in Japan..nothing you say truly apply (but then considering your misguided stubbornness you will never accept or get it).

Here are the sales figures for non-kei cars in Japan (by category as you go through the pages)....yeah dude...you are so right  <---that was sarcasm

https://carview.yahoo.co.jp/article/market/20180731-20104121-carview/?t=3

 

 

Edited August 6, 2018 by iRage

[matroska]

16 hours ago, Jason_Bourne said:

Seems you "iRage" and "matroska" are Hybrid owners who got fooled by car sales back in 2012/13! Now seeing the real depreciation of your cars every time when some talks about it you guys get paranoid

LMAO ???  no putha i did not get fooled by a car sale since i imported directly  and none of my comments were speculative or just quoting random links off the internet- i was just stating facts and experiences for people to make an informed decision.  Depreciation of any equipment is natural - I think maybe you are from the camp that believes vehicles are like fixed deposits that yield you benefits. That may have been the story in the past but of late that's not the case.  The real "depreciation" of my car is something i'm ok with specially when that depreciation means me selling it off for the same price i brought it - [and I didn't have to listen to bulls**t from dodgy buyyas peddling an  abused 121 with a tampered odo for 3.5 Million] 

 As for Irage that man doesn't even live here and has driven half-a-dozen non hybrid cars (from what I gather from his posts)  so no i don't think he's paranoid about his hybrid he brought in 2013. 

 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2018 by matroska
for decency's sake :)

[Quiet]

18 minutes ago, matroska said:

 

 

 

?

[MrCat]

Don’t know jack about where the SL car market is heading, but as far as I can see Hybrids are a ‘bridging’ technology that`ll hopefully get faced out within the next decade or two. At the moment, these makes sense in certain markets with strict regulations on fuel consumption ratings, CO2 emissions ratings, etc… Also makes sense in markets where expected life of an automobile is <10 years and new car purchases are justified by low interest finance etc...

Compared to the beautiful simplicity of a pure EV or even compared to the relative simplicity (and more importantly the simplicity of long term servicing/repairing) of a Petrol power-plant, I think hybrids are just over complicated for what they offer and  are more suited to the buy new, use, and ‘throw-away’ sort of markets.  EVs will catch up soon and Hybrid production will only be beneficial for certain markets/users where EV range is a concern.

 

[iRage]

19 minutes ago, MrCat said:

Don’t know jack about where the SL car market is heading, but as far as I can see Hybrids are a ‘bridging’ technology that`ll hopefully get faced out within the next decade or two. At the moment, these makes sense in certain markets with strict regulations on fuel consumption ratings, CO2 emissions ratings, etc… Also makes sense in markets where expected life of an automobile is <10 years and new car purchases are justified by low interest finance etc...

Compared to the beautiful simplicity of a pure EV or even compared to the relative simplicity (and more importantly the simplicity of long term servicing/repairing) of a Petrol power-plant, I think hybrids are just over complicated for what they offer and  are more suited to the buy new, use, and ‘throw-away’ sort of markets.  EVs will catch up soon and Hybrid production will only be beneficial for certain markets/users where EV range is a concern.

 

Yes..The current form of Hybrids are a transient technology. If you go through the old posts on Hybrids quite a few of us were saying so (from the beginning). The thing is....the fact that cars should depreciate has nothing to do with it being Hybrid or not....things are messed up in SL because cars are unreasonably expensive so people are looking at it like long term investments.

Some of us also said that Hybrids would not be able to last in SL because our skills base was low...well...we were 50:50 on that as the skills did pick up faster than expected to a certain degree (if an owner was willing to maintain it properly). Also...until a few year ago, Hybrids were a lot cheaper because of our tax structure. Heck I remember a time a Panamera was chaper than a Camry at the agents !

Also, Nissan is rolling out battery swap tech and services in China (Honda did it with bikes in Taiwan and some other places). So when the battery is dying down you just pull up and exchange your drained battery for a fully charged one. So no charging time. They are still piloting it in Japan

[Jason_Bourne]

Man this guy "iRage" is on some another level eh? This guy goes around quoting me in unrelated topics coz he got hurt on this thread! haha!

How did you become a top contributor? damn! How old are you? 
Calm down! We are just expressing our opinions. Nobody gonna give you a medal for the top comment here!

Anyway I've made my points and I don't think we can build constructive arguments with like this! Bye! 

[MrCat]

2 hours ago, iRage said:

Yes..The current form of Hybrids are a transient technology. If you go through the old posts on Hybrids quite a few of us were saying so (from the beginning). The thing is....the fact that cars should depreciate has nothing to do with it being Hybrid or not....things are messed up in SL because cars are unreasonably expensive so people are looking at it like long term investments.

Some of us also said that Hybrids would not be able to last in SL because our skills base was low...well...we were 50:50 on that as the skills did pick up faster than expected to a certain degree (if an owner was willing to maintain it properly). Also...until a few year ago, Hybrids were a lot cheaper because of our tax structure. Heck I remember a time a Panamera was chaper than a Camry at the agents !

Also, Nissan is rolling out battery swap tech and services in China (Honda did it with bikes in Taiwan and some other places). So when the battery is dying down you just pull up and exchange your drained battery for a fully charged one. So no charging time. They are still piloting it in Japan

 

Yes, totally get the retarded tax structure and the influx of Hybrids that got in as a result. It’s unfortunate that the clueless common car buyer is affected really. Though there is an obvious saving in fuel usage, I’m sure the saved foreign exchange will be offset by service and repair expenditure of Hybrids over the long run (say average Nissan N15 which is 20 years old now, against a 2012 Prius). Even though repair expertise is there, certain components are horribly expensive when they break.

I refuse to buy a new car until I can afford a pure EV. I will always have at least one internal combustion oil burner for weekend fun, but the simplicity and the architecture of an EV is really cool.! Can’t think of anything better as a daily hack.

 

[vag2]

24 minutes ago, MrCat said:

 

but the simplicity and the architecture of an EV is really cool.! Can’t think of anything better as a daily hack.

 

 

In many countries, Rescue workers are provided special training how to Cut open Electric and Hybrid cars in case of accidents and rescue the passengers without electrocuting themselves. Specially the Li battery can start burning even when it is stored in a Yard due to spontaneous internal short-circuits and Thermal Imbalances many days after an accident.

Don't get killed messing with High Voltage,it is not like connecting a small motor to a pen-torch battery and turning a Vesak  Lantern.

[noddy]

Irage know it all !!!!

 

 

 

 

[mcs627]

55 minutes ago, MrCat said:

 

Yes, totally get the retarded tax structure and the influx of Hybrids that got in as a result. It’s unfortunate that the clueless common car buyer is affected really. Though there is an obvious saving in fuel usage, I’m sure the saved foreign exchange will be offset by service and repair expenditure of Hybrids over the long run (say average Nissan N15 which is 20 years old now, against a 2012 Prius). Even though repair expertise is there, certain components are horribly expensive when they break.

I refuse to buy a new car until I can afford a pure EV. I will always have at least one internal combustion oil burner for weekend fun, but the simplicity and the architecture of an EV is really cool.! Can’t think of anything better as a daily hack.

 

The morbid fear of hybrid technology is unfounded. The proof lies beneath and still running strong. It's the same fear that made people stay away from front wheel drive vehicles and automatics in the last couple of decades. 

Edited August 7, 2018 by mcs627
Spelling

[iRage]

4 hours ago, Jason_Bourne said:

Man this guy "iRage" is on some another level eh? This guy goes around quoting me in unrelated topics coz he got hurt on this thread! haha!

How did you become a top contributor? damn! How old are you? 
Calm down! We are just expressing our opinions. Nobody gonna give you a medal for the top comment here!

Anyway I've made my

Awww...you think I am the one who got hurt ?  Yes..I did quote you on that thread because I am shocked that you can actually say something that makes sense and I was agreeing with what you were saying (but I do realize you are unable to comprehend the obvious)

2 hours ago, noddy said:

Irage know it all !!!!

I thought that was you because you knew that all kei cars had the same engine  Remember that ? You have a mate now

Someone simply can't accept the fact that his statement "Hybrid cars are NOT popular in their home countries" is utter bu!!$h!t.. I did provide sales data proving that @Jason_Bourne claim was not valid in Japan. Whilst only evidence he had for his claim was a research paper that showed there was a relationship between TCO and popularity of car; where the paper didn't even discuss the actual popularity of Hybrid models; but then the paper itself hinted that Hybrids are popular in Japan. 

Newbies...

[ajm]

 

17 hours ago, iRage said:

.

Here are the sales figures for non-kei cars in Japan (by category as you go through the pages)....yeah dude...you are so right  <---that was sarcasm

https://carview.yahoo.co.jp/article/market/20180731-20104121-carview/?t=3

 

 

the link seems to classify sales depending on market segment?  not Hybrid or non-hybrid

Compact:Aqua>Note>Roomy>Fit>Vitz                   Roomy,Vitz hybrid only?

Sedan:Prius>Crown>Axio>Camry>Premio        Crown,Premio are non hybrid?

Wagon:Fileder>Shuttle>Subaru Levorg>Prius Alfa>Atenza       only shuttle and Prius are pure hybrid?

MInivan: Serena>Voxy>Freed>Sienta>Noah       Serena is hybrid?

Crossover:C-HR>Vessel>Xtrail>Harrier>CX-5    only Vessel is the pure hybrid?

Coupe:Toyota 86> Subaru BRZ any hybrid?

Kei Minivan:Honda N-Box>Suzuki Spacia>Dhatsu Tanto>DHatsu Move>Nissan DayZ are only Hybrid?

 

[gayanath]

4 hours ago, vag2 said:

Don't get killed messing with High Voltage,it is not like connecting a small motor to a pen-torch battery and turning a Vesak  Lantern.

Is your petrol tank safe on your non EV and non hybrid?

Is it just like lighting a candle in Vesak Lantern?

[vag2]

14 minutes ago, gayanath said:

Is your petrol tank safe on your non EV and non hybrid?

Is it just like lighting a candle in Vesak Lantern?

Again the makabass with no regard for hi-voltage safety, you are welcome to mess with the hi-voltage lines of your precious Hybrid.?.

It is exactly because of people like this that hybrids and EV are not suitable for Sri Lanka.

 

P.S:Gasoline does not burn without the presence of flames or Sparks. After a crash is detected, the vehicle has many safety feature like injection stop,Ignition Stop, fuel cut-off to prevent a fire. The cars just don't crash and burn anymore like in the Tamil movies. On the other hand, the unstable nature of Li-IOn batteries especially after a Crash is a major Engineering challenge,to which no real cost effective solution exists until now.

[iRage]

1 hour ago, ajm said:

 

the link seems to classify sales depending on market segment?  not Hybrid or non-hybrid

Compact:Aqua>Note>Roomy>Fit>Vitz                   Roomy,Vitz hybrid only?

Sedan:Prius>Crown>Axio>Camry>Premio        Crown,Premio are non hybrid?

Wagon:Fileder>Shuttle>Subaru Levorg>Prius Alfa>Atenza       only shuttle and Prius are pure hybrid?

MInivan: Serena>Voxy>Freed>Sienta>Noah       Serena is hybrid?

Crossover:C-HR>Vessel>Xtrail>Harrier>CX-5    only Vessel is the pure hybrid?

Coupe:Toyota 86> Subaru BRZ any hybrid?

Kei Minivan:Honda N-Box>Suzuki Spacia>Dhatsu Tanto>DHatsu Move>Nissan DayZ are only Hybrid?

 

Yes...it is by segment...and even by segment...the leaders are Hybrids....

1. Nope...Vitz is split between Hybrid and non-Hybrid. I don't know what the split is...

2. Crown again is a split between Hybrid and Gasoline; and again, the market data for the Crown is again mostly for the Hybrid Athlete. Even in the case of cars like Axio and the Fielder the majority sold are Hybrids.

3. Vezel is also Hybrid and gasoline..but just like the rest most sold is the Hybrid variant.

4 Serena is gasoline and ePower. Sales took a huge uptick when the ePower was launched. 

5 Coupe's no Hybrid. But Subaru has been planning a Hybrid variant along with Toyota for the next generation.

6: Keis are all gasoline except for the Spacia

The data is based on registered vehicles for that month which includes orders from previous months. 

[vag2]

26 minutes ago, iRage said:

 

6: Keis are all gasoline except for the Spacia 

The data is based on registered vehicles for that month which includes orders from previous months. 

Strange why their are no Wagon-R hybrid freaks like we have here.?

Includes Vehicles de-registered and sent to Sri Lanka by thousands??

 

[iRage]

33 minutes ago, vag2 said:

Strange why their are no Wagon-R hybrid freaks like we have here.?

Includes Vehicles de-registered and sent to Sri Lanka by thousands??

 

Yes...includes those too...but annually the transport ministry also publishes reports on types of vehicles licensed and inspected annually (based on road taxes and eco deductions, etc...given out as part of transparency). Again...not much of a difference.

Wagon R is not that popular over in Japan because for almost the same price you get kei cars that are much better.

[gayanath]

14 hours ago, vag2 said:

Again the makabass with no regard for hi-voltage safety, you are welcome to mess with the hi-voltage lines of your precious Hybrid.?.

It is exactly because of people like this that hybrids and EV are not suitable for Sri Lanka.

P.S:Gasoline does not burn without the presence of flames or Sparks. After a crash is detected, the vehicle has many safety feature like injection stop,Ignition Stop, fuel cut-off to prevent a fire. The cars just don't crash and burn anymore like in the Tamil movies. On the other hand, the unstable nature of Li-IOn batteries especially after a Crash is a major Engineering challenge,to which no real cost effective solution exists until now.

Ha.....  ha.... ??

Part 1. - Fire Risk

Read this.....

https://insideevs.com/exploring-and-understanding-the-fire-risk-for-electric-cars/

Highlights:

"The propensity and severity of fires and explosions from … lithium ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels."

". . . gasoline powered cars are about 11 times more likely to catch fire than a Tesla. It says the best comparison is fires per 1 billion miles driven. It says the 300,000 Teslas on the road have been driven a total of 7.5 billion miles, and about 40 fires have been reported. That works out to five fires for every billion miles traveled, compared to a rate of 55 fires per billion miles traveled in gasoline cars."

Part 2 - High Voltage 

Not just high voltage, even 230 V AC domestic line is more than enough for fatal accident if not properly managed. So, risk is every where and usability is depend on how we managed by engineering and administrative controls. 

 

Hint:  Dear Mr. @vag2, Do not fly bec, if a plane crashed, life lost is guaranteed. 

But Interestingly, air travel is the world's safest passenger transportation method.  

This is the difference of Bass and Makabass......

 

Edited August 8, 2018 by gayanath

[ajm]

Meanwhile in Berlin,another Prius self immolates.

https://www.berliner-kurier.de/berlin/kiez---stadt/hybridautos-die-rollenden-feuerfallen-26161340#
 

[vag2]

Doesn't look good, Football Hooligans set fire to an immigrant Taxi drivers car?

[Jason_Bourne]

The thing is even developed countries struggle to put-off Li-ion battery fires. Imagine a hybrid battery catching fire in Sri Lanka and our inexperienced fire fighters trying to put it off! ? 

www.consumerreports.org
How Tesla and Other EV Battery Fires Challenge First-Responder Tactics

 

"A lot more water is required for EV fires than for conventional fires, Klock says. That’s because it’s critical for firefighters to lower the temperature of the burning lithium-ion cell. Conventional car fires can be smothered with water and foam, and they don’t usually reignite once they’re extinguished. With EVs, a battery fire may be inside a compartment that’s protected by shields, where the water isn’t directly affecting the flames. According to Klock, the point of fighting a battery fire is to lower the temperature to a point where the chemicals stop burning.

Fire departments have been encouraged to use thermal imaging to monitor the batteries even after the fire is out, according to a study prepared by the industry research firm Exponent for the Fire Protection Research Foundation."

"The challenge of lithium-ion batteries in cars is that there hasn’t been nearly as much time to study the unique properties of battery packs, Risser said in an interview with CR. And when things go bad, there’s a chance for them to go bad in a dramatic fashion, he said."

[ajm]

24 minutes ago, vag2 said:

Doesn't look good, Football Hooligans set fire to an immigrant Taxi drivers car?

Nope, such things happen only in US.? It says the root cause was a technical defect.

The statement from the Berlin Fire Department said traditional fire fighting methods like water and Co2 are not effective because the battery block has started to catch fire when they arrived at the scene. Soon it advanced to the state of metallic burning, above 1000 Celsius. The fire continued for days. Such slow-burning-High-temperature fires can be controlled only with a special powder which was not available in Berlin Fire Department yet. In another case they had to put a Tesla inside a container filled with water, because the fire had restarted and continued for days even after it was parked in a salvage yard after they thought the fire was extinguished.

The point here is not the risk of catching  fire compared to Gasoline or Diesel, but the higher severity level of a fire in vehicles with Li-Ion Batteries.

In addition a Study by the Swiss Institue „Eidgenössische Koordinationskommission für Arbeitssicherheit“ is mentioned here. Although some safety mechanisms exist to discharge the HV battery in case of a failure, further investigations show they do not always function  100% as expected. So there is high risk to rescue workers coming in touch with HV lines, when they cut off a vehicle to rescue survivors in an accident. These issues are still being investigated in developed countries, so not possible anyone in our country has even thought about them.

[vag2]

These are known facts that car salesmen in Sri Lanka never tell an unsuspecting buyer when selling a Hybrid or EV.

 

in the meantime, THREE NEW THREADS about Hybrid and EV problems have opened in the last 24 hours!

A good representation of the poor Reliability of a technology still in development.

The people who rushed to ride the Hybrid wave to look "posh" to the Perera Aunty nextdoor are now starting to regret it when the failures have started coming?

Edited August 8, 2018 by vag2