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Kal-El

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Hi

Automobiles or cars as we used call them, has long become a commodity and are now mass produced trade items that aims to fulfill the automotive requirements of contemporary human beings, whose day to day routines IMHO, are much more sophisticated now and reflect the chaotic and busy social, economic aspects of modern societies. Due to such scenario, most of us has lost certain feel good factor and innocence that we had when we were growing up (applies more to people who have grown up in 80's and 90's).

IMHO, the cars themselves too, whilst become state-of-the-art and technologically revolutionary by every passing year, has lost a certain character and enthusiasts who love cars manufactured in 90's or early 00's, may agree that, their cars has such personality and character, that most modern cars (even the current models of their favorite make) lacks and thus continues to TLC their cars with great dedication and soul. IMHO, For example, a BMW car manufactured in 90's (or early 00's) has such a timeless design aesthetics and driving a well maintained car will give the impression that, people who made that car has such attention to detail, workmanship, passion and are mostly assembled in original factory of the maker. Now a modern BMW for example is mostly put together by robots and are mass-produced items in countries like India or china (no offense to the countries) and during recent ride in a 2015 5 series, I got the impression that, whilst the Car is modern looking and dripping with latest technologies, it lacked that certain character that old ones had and I got the impression that some of the materials used in the new car may not be durable as the ones in older cars.

No I cannot afford a 2015 BMW for the time being I do not intent to discourage anyone from buying one. Also I do not intent to undervalue the brilliant tech or modern aspects of new cars, However, my heart always races when i see a mint condition older car (exclusively euro car as I am an  euro car enthusiast) on the roads and I don't get the same excitement when I see modern cars.

It may be just me or do you also happens to have same feelings for 90's cars.

Sound off in comments below

Cheers,

Edited by Kal-El
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8 hours ago, Kal-El said:

it lacked that certain character that old ones had and I got the impression that some of the materials used in the new car may not be durable as the ones in older cars.

spot on, can agree to that :) 

Edited by fiatLife
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59 minutes ago, AJ84 said:

You are absolutely correct. In my case I do own 2002 Peugeot 406 and it is a great feeling when I drive compared to modern cars I drove.

IMG_20160730_075029.jpg

Peugeot 406 is a nice car and it was on my wishlist 4-5 years ago when I wanted to buy my first car.  :rolleyes:

Edited by Kal-El
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1 hour ago, Kal-El said:

Peugeot 406 is a nice car and it was on my wishlist 4-5 years ago when I wanted to buy my first car.  :rolleyes:

My first car was a Jap. But after I hv changed it to this, I would continue using EUs with personality. :wub:

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You are right, automobiles have fallen victim to being ‘state of the art’ and ‘rapid design/production time’, just like any other consumable item these days.  Planned obsolescence is embedded in to certain items produced these days, so the focus is more on production > consumption > throw away/recycle. I mean, with the exponential growth of technological advancements, who would want to over-engineer a car (at the expense of a massive design budget) which would become out-of-date in a decade? So the current principle (IMHO) is to come up with a global platform (get the basics right in terms of chassis, engine, etc….) load it up with technical wizardry and try and sell as many copies as possible.

Its supply and demand as well. Nobody cares about good chassis balance these days, it’s all about that internet enabled entertainment system with 15 speakers..! In the 90`s, Toyota used to sell at least 5 two door sports coupes globally (MR2, Supra, Celica, Levin, Paseo). This is what I remember, there could have been more. Now they are struggling to sell a single sports coupe (the GT 86), and they had to partner-up with Subaru to design and market even that.!

I agree, most of the modern mass produced cars “feels” the same, they mostly differ in terms of electronic gadgetry. Having driven a few new 200+ HP cars (with variable geometry turbos, variable speed steering racks, dual clutch gear boxes, electronic differentials, toque vectoring and all that jazz) , I keep going back to my 20 year old 130HP Mazda MX5 for its sheer mechanical brilliance and analog feel!

 

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Just remembered since you mentioned BMWs.

I`ve done quite a bit of research about the E30 in the past, and they`ve been going up in value globally. The prices of E30 M3s have gone absolutely bonkers. IMHO, this is due to the exact reasons you`ve mentioned.

Since late, I`ve been thinking/researching about the E36 M3 as well, because they are still relatively affordable and I believe they will start following the E30 M3 in future, in terms of value.

Take the E36 M3 for example. It`s got a 3.2 liter naturally aspirated straight 6, which is capable of screaming all the way to 7500 rpm. The suspension geometry is well designed (nothing electronic) and the power is put down through mechanical LSD.  The mechanical bits are very robust and relatively easy to fix even if something goes wrong.

Fast forward 20 years in to the current model F80 M3. It will absolutely rape an E36 in terms of performance. And is probably a very comfortable place to live as well (I haven’t driven one).  But would it still retain its character in 20 years’ time? Would the electronics would even continue to work after some hard use? And when that electric water pump/differential/suspension give up, would it be worthwhile to even try and restore things back to original specs?  I personally think not.

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While I agree with the principle of the topic, I have to say that there are some bright spots in today's crop of cars that give you genuine character and fun. Pretty much all of Mazda's current line up for example, seem to manage this very well.

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An excellent analysis on contemporary automotive industry and thank you for sharing that information.

You have raised some very interesting points, especially I like your forecast on the possible destiny of modern electronically charged  vehicles in couple of decades.

And after you mentioned, I did a quick search on ebay for M3 E30. OMG, some are advertised for 50,000 quid, whereas current F30 M3 can be had for far less money. :o

Need to get a good sample of my favorite, a 740il E38, before prices starts to increase here in SL.

 

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7 minutes ago, Supra_Natural said:

While I agree with the principle of the topic, I have to say that there are some bright spots in today's crop of cars that give you genuine character and fun. Pretty much all of Mazda's current line up for example, seem to manage this very well.

You may be right. Mazda is reputed for driver oriented automobiles and as you said, they may still make cars that has genuine character and are fun to drive. Also super brands like Ferrari, maserati, A-Martins, maclarens seems to improve on that particular characteristic. But my view on the general aspects of the current automotive industry. Thanks for your contribution BTW.

 

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Also, does any one of you noticed that, there is ship load of F10 5 series BMW that are only 2-3 years used are advertised on AL and other quick sites. IMHO there are more 2-3 year used F10 5 series for sale than Alto's. :D

Is there a particular defect with this particular car as at a given moment, there may be as much as 50 used F10's for sale, whereas it is only in a blue moon that we get to see an E38 or a good E39. :unsure:

Yes, there is much more F10 on the road than older models, Yet still ?

Edited by Kal-El
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I agree, Mazda did extremely well with the whole Zoom-Zoom promotion. They got chassis tuning and suspension (on the firm side) right and packaged things nicely.  Whilst Honda lost its plot, Mazda became the new Honda. I`ve got a 2010 Mazda 6 and IMHO it`s the best in its class in terms of drivability, at its price point.

I also agree that the ‘fun factor’ is not entirely lost in modern cars, mainly due to the responsiveness bought in by stronger/stiffer chassis design and engines producing sufficient low end toque.  Even a current model Corolla is quite chuckable around corners when compared to the sloppy cars they were in the 90s.

However, the ‘feel’ of a car (especially to a car person) is something beyond responsiveness. It`s in the steering feel, the brakes, transmission feel, exterior and interior design, power delivery, noise, etc… a bit hard to pin-point and explain really.  

Take breaks for example. In its most basic form it would have a boosted hydraulic system (most common in the 80s/90s).  Then ABS was added, reducing pedal feel and manual modulation in the process.  You can stomp on the brakes, the ABS module will take over and do the rest.  Then came active braking, which will prime the brakes for you even before you put your foot on the pedal.!.  Don’t get me wrong, these technologies are a blessing when it comes to ease of driving and safety. I would take a new car for daily driving without thinking twice. But to drive for the heck of driving, to pamper and preserve, to take out and feel great, modern appliances on wheels just don’t work for me. :) 

Edited by MrCat
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2 hours ago, Kal-El said:

Also, does any one of you noticed that, there is ship load of F10 5 series BMW that are only 2-3 years used are advertised on AL and other quick sites. IMHO there are more 2-3 year used F10 5 series for sale than Alto's. :D

Is there a particular defect with this particular car as at a given moment, there may be as much as 50 used F10's for sale, whereas it is only in a blue moon that we get to see an E38 or a good E39. :unsure:

Yes, there is much more F10 on the road than older models, Yet still ?

F10s are basically a numbers game, hundreds of them were imported because of the permits and were bought by ... err let's say people who were not traditionally BMW buyers because they were relatively cheap, big and had the BMW badge. Those people now have either realized that a BMW needs particular care and attention to run or have moved on to the next shiny new trinket, so lots of F10s are coming on to the market.

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1 hour ago, Supra_Natural said:

F10s are basically a numbers game, hundreds of them were imported because of the permits and were bought by ... err let's say people who were not traditionally BMW buyers because they were relatively cheap, big and had the BMW badge. Those people now have either realized that a BMW needs particular care and attention to run or have moved on to the next shiny new trinket, so lots of F10s are coming on to the market.

You probably right about the F10's. I've seen that people who do not know almost nothing (except that is a premium, prestigious and German make) about BM's, owns F10. It seems that, most BMW experts and enthusiasts here in SL can only afford a 10-20 year old Beamer, which is kind a :huh:

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3 hours ago, MrCat said:

I agree, Mazda did extremely well with the whole Zoom-Zoom promotion. They got chassis tuning and suspension (on the firm side) right and packaged things nicely.  Whilst Honda lost its plot, Mazda became the new Honda. I`ve got a 2010 Mazda 6 and IMHO it`s the best in its class in terms of drivability, at its price point.

I also agree that the ‘fun factor’ is not entirely lost in modern cars, mainly due to the responsiveness bought in by stronger/stiffer chassis design and engines producing sufficient low end toque.  Even a current model Corolla is quite chuckable around corners when compared to the sloppy cars they were in the 90s.

However, the ‘feel’ of a car (especially to a car person) is something beyond responsiveness. It`s in the steering feel, the brakes, transmission feel, exterior and interior design, power delivery, noise, etc… a bit hard to pin-point and explain really.  

Take breaks for example. In its most basic form it would have a boosted hydraulic system (most common in the 80s/90s).  Then ABS was added, reducing pedal feel and manual modulation in the process.  You can stomp on the brakes, the ABS module will take over and do the rest.  Then came active braking, which will prime the brakes for you even before you put your foot on the pedal.!.  Don’t get me wrong, these technologies are a blessing when it comes to ease of driving and safety. I would take a new car for daily driving without thinking twice. But to drive for the heck of driving, to pamper and preserve, to take out and feel great, modern appliances on wheels just don’t work for me. :) 

Very well said

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This is why I bought a 90's hatch in the end. I'll never give up my Axio, not after being spoilt by the electric steering and the very muted presence of the hybrid system. But every so often I feel the need to row my own gears, and I take the Starlet, and pray the battery isn't dead by the time I arrive at office (battery charges fine now, but still a little wary and always make sure that there's someone at hand to give me a jump start).

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Yeap there's nothing like an old school manual for some clean wholesome fun!

Having said that while I'd love a older manual like our friend terrabyetango for use as a second car, for everyday driving I do like driving a more modern car. It may not be as fun but it keeps me alive!

Being a regular sort of bloke with no extra ordinary driving skills to speak of, the more modern cars allow even a knob like me to drive a relatively fast car safely with a wide margin of error, keeping me and everyone else on the road safe.

Just last week I was speeding down a nice stretch of road and took a corner too fast that caused a bit of a slide; thankfully all sorts of systems kicked in and whipped my back wheels back in line with the front ones and braked the car for me before I had even processed the fact that I was sliding off the road. By the time I started to react, everything was back under control and  I was able to drive off no worse for wear other than some scratches on the rear flank where a shrub had caressed the rear end as it swung by. 

Had that happened in our familys' beloved 90's era Fiat it would have been curtains for me!

Edited by Kavvz
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Well sure, a bigger car with a bigger engine you'd need to watch out. But the Starlet isn't a fast car by any stretch of the imagination, so there isn't much that can go wrong with it unless you really fudge it up. What people don't realise is, driving pleasure doesn't always equate to power and speed. I mean ask any MG Midget owner.

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3 hours ago, terrabytetango said:

Well sure, a bigger car with a bigger engine you'd need to watch out. But the Starlet isn't a fast car by any stretch of the imagination, so there isn't much that can go wrong with it unless you really fudge it up. What people don't realise is, driving pleasure doesn't always equate to power and speed. I mean ask any MG Midget owner.

Spot on!  As in, I don't know any MG owners (giant, midget or otherwise ;)- I kid, I kid! I'm old enough to have heard of the MG Midget)  nor have I driven an MG, but spot on- I get the concept that driving pleasure doesn't always equate to power and speed.

You just have to drive any American sports car to realize that sticking a large engine in a car doesn't always mean its fun to drive. The previous gen Ford Mustang is a good example of this fact and is available for rent at virtually any airport in North America if you want to test this theory that speed and power doesn't always equate to driving pleasure...

Edited by Kavvz
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