Nissan Leaf And Future Of Electric Vehicles In Sri Lanka

[Crosswind]

It’s true we do not have sufficient electricity to cater all the consumers during peak hours, but generators that the CEB uses to provide the Peak demand are operated only for a few hours of the day, after the night peak, the generators which generate the peak demand shutdown until people begin to work next day. Next day again these generators need to restart which ingests quite a lot of money as a huge energy level is required for a fresh start, so I think what Champika’s plan is to introduce a new calculation and special tariff between the hours of 2200 and 0400 for charging cars so they do not need to shut down the generators every night which eventually saves lot of money for CEB.

This is the typical selfish idiotic thinking that has landed this country in such a mess.

• Getting two electric lines for your home DOES NOT solve the country's power crisis
• CEB using generators for peak hours DOES NOT solve the country's power crisis
• Introducing special tariffs DOES NOT solve the country's power crisis
• Solving the power crisis is NOT about saving money. It's about giving every person in this country, access to electricity. Especially giving poor but brilliant children in villages, a fair chance.

More and more electric cars will only aggravate the power crisis this country already has.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Crosswind

[matroska]

This is the typical selfish idiotic thinking that has landed this country in such a mess.

[The Don]

Crosswind touches on a very important point. There is a reason why electricity prices are the way they are. So in Sri Lanka it is not practical to power electrical vehicles off the grid, as the cost of bulk produced electricity is too high and frankly too dirty. These are usually the main reasons used to promote EVs everywhere else but in SL they are not valid.

So until we find a solution to our power crsis (and at the moment it isn't clear what it is as coal polutes too much, we can't really build any more hydro power plants without seriously damaging the ecology around those areas, which quite frankly have suffered a lot during the build of the last hydro plants, nuclear start up costs are too high and gas/diesel plants costs too much to run).

I'm not sure if you guys saw the recent presentation by Elon Musc where he presented a solar solution with their new battery. Its too early to say if its practical but certainly the cost outlay is a lot less than current solutions available in SL, and with energy efficiency increasing, and we having all year round sunshine it might just be enough to take pressure off the central grid so we can survive on what we already generate.

The reason why the US will soon be self sufficient in oil and gas is not just due to an increase in production (due to shale gas). It is because demand has also fallen due to increased efficiency and changes in attitudes.

[B2Spirit]

The battery capacity is the fundamental problem that every electronic gadget from the phone to the car is facing.

Despite advancements in every other area its the battery technology that is holding everything back and there is no light at the end of the tunnel yet.

And on top of that limitation, the new infrastructure requirements will also hold back EV adoption compared to hybrids.

And the fact that Toyota and Honda betting on hydrogen instead of Electric is interesting as they are 2 of the big manufacturers and it shows that EVs are not as promising as Mr. Tesla says.

On the other hand despite the infrastructure issues hydrogen can still be pumped like petrol in 3-5 mins and electricity will take a long time to get there which is a big plus for hydrogen.

After all with the hybrids and improved efficient petrol/diesel engines, I don't think anybody has to worry yet .

So we can just sit back and watch while EV and Hydrogen duke it out and a clear winner is chosen.

[The Don]

The battery capacity is the fundamental problem that every electronic gadget from the phone to the car is facing.

Despite advancements in every other area its the battery technology that is holding everything back and there is no light at the end of the tunnel yet.

And on top of that limitation, the new infrastructure requirements will also hold back EV adoption compared to hybrids.

And the fact that Toyota and Honda betting on hydrogen instead of Electric is interesting as they are 2 of the big manufacturers and it shows that EVs are not as promising as Mr. Tesla says.

On the other hand despite the infrastructure issues hydrogen can still be pumped like petrol in 3-5 mins and electricity will take a long time to get there which is a big plus for hydrogen.

After all with the hybrids and improved efficient petrol/diesel engines, I don't think anybody has to worry yet .

So we can just sit back and watch while EV and Hydrogen duke it out and a clear winner is chosen.

Ironically hydrogen does not mean the EV is dead. Infact Hydrogen powered cars are EVs with hydrogen fuel cells. What it produces is ultimately electricity which is used for propulsion. So most of the car remains the same.

What you might get is probably another hybrid or a plug in hybrid because in most places charging from mains is a lot cheaper than producing your own electricity.

But the bottom line is this.

1. Batteries in cars are here to say. Even in conventional petrol powered vehicles they will be used for various energy recovery systems as used in formula 1. So most cars are going to be hybrids of some inclination. The fact is it vastly improves the thermo dynamic efficiency of a vehicle.

2. Electric vehicles are here to stay. Its far less bulky to use electric propulsion via motors than use ususal mechanical axles and diffs in a lot of scenarios. Fancy electronic diffs a lot of modern cars with traction control have will give way to simpler electronically controlled propulsion.

What we might end up are a number of variants to suit different uses. Full EVs will probably not be the norm until you get induction charging through the road itself or a similar technology, or until batteries become hyper efficient and very quick to charge. These are exciting evolving areas of science.

[ozzie]

My friend has a leaf, and eventhrough he runs 10-15km a day, he has to charge it every week.

The car is good, and silent.

But what's annoying is the charging part, sometimes charging points are occupied by another customer, sometimes 2, and you need around 35-40 minutes to charge and to pay and etc.

Charging at home takes 8 hours with his charger, and sometimes it doesn't draw the correct charge amount.

Eventhrough he's 2013 leaf is supposed to do 170KM, it only does 110KM according to his driving style.

[matroska]

Out of curiosity how many charging points are there anyway?

[Crosswind]

My friend has a leaf, and eventhrough he runs 10-15km a day, he has to charge it every week.

The car is good, and silent.

But what's annoying is the charging part, sometimes charging points are occupied by another customer, sometimes 2, and you need around 35-40 minutes to charge and to pay and etc.

Charging at home takes 8 hours with his charger, and sometimes it doesn't draw the correct charge amount.

Eventhrough he's 2013 leaf is supposed to do 170KM, it only does 110KM according to his driving style.

Here's a much more environmentally friendly option for your friend.

Highlevel express cabs cost Rs. 40/km, Sonit cabs cost Rs. 42/km (with no waiting charges up to 20 mins)

10-15km a day, which is 450km/month would cost him <Rs. 19,000 a month

Also why do you people believe in this "2013 leaf is supposed to do 170KM" rubbish??? Don't people in this country have simple cognitive ability to understand that car sale people are liars and car owners are bigger liars than car sale people when it comes to talking about fuel efficiency?

Edited June 16, 2015 by Crosswind

[tiv]

Lovely work on these threads gentlemen, amidst all the friction a lot of great facts have been discussed, rather happy to see a local forum being informative even along with such a bland topic, referring to most of the EV threads up/ discussed

cheers

[tiv]

To add to this, I would be lovely if someone could add if they could make a 100+km go in one trip, idea Colombo Kandy given the hilly driving condition. Thanks

[B2Spirit]

they are saying that the 2016 leaf will have 25% more range than the current one.

The battery capacity has been increased from 24KWh to 30KWh.

Edited September 19, 2015 by B2Spirit

[gayanath]

Dude, you need sumanadasa to discuss about future of electric cars?

You dont need to have a PHD to predict the future of something you are aware about,all you need is some historical data and some basic mathematical skills/logic and you are there..

Are you a admin or pro member here? cause I do not normally argue with most of the admins here, what i believe is-

'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

Nice saying.............

[gayanath]

The most serious problem this country has is not all that. We have a power crisis. This country barely meets its power requirements and for about 6 months every year, the government needs to buy electricity from privately run mini diesel power stations to keep our lights switched on in the night. We don't have money to build new large power plants. The last time we tried to build one, we failed miserably,

Now imagine the situation when we have 100,000 Nissan Leafs (or similar) in the country. A Nissan leaf with a 3300W charger takes all night (8 hours) to do a full charge (off Wikipedia). So lets assume a car is charged once in 4 days. 100,000 leafs x 1/4 x 3300 = 82.5MW. That's almost the capacity of Laxapana power plant - one of the biggest in the country!

When these leeches with their electric cars aggravate our power crisis and if power cuts come in, who is going to pay for it? The poor kids who use one light bulb to study for their O/Ls and A/Ls. Its a pity that the power and energy minister, who is an electrical engineer, hasnt even thought about this.

This country is not ready for electric cars. Not yet.

And don't get me started about solar net metering. Even if you cover a 10-perch land with Solar panels, you won't be able to generate enough power to charge a Leaf.

Actually, I oppose with Crosswind.

1. We have no power crisis now. Problem is cater to the maximum demand which need at peak hours (morning and late evening) but after the 900 MW coal power plant we have enough power. If we plan to charge EV's at night (after 10:30 pm up to 4:00 am) it will not a headache to country. Your 82.5 MW is nothing in night time. If we could build Sampur coal plant too, then we have extra power.

2. Country will be ready for EVs in very near future if government support. Im sure it will take 2-3 years.

3. Solar net metering is loss to CEB as we have no huge demand in day time (as we have no enough industrial usage). But we could save some water to use in night time too. But if the country having big demand in day time due to industrial requirement, then net metering is like a god. We have to take country to that.

Currently, In Sri Lanka, majority is buying a single car (due to the family income level) for full range of use (short distance / long distance and trips). In that sense, EV is not a good solution as we are using own vehicles for long distance transport requirements. But now its turning back day by day. Same time, if public transport became good in next couple of years, Then, lot of people will buy EVs.

Earlier, most people consider whether the car is Japan, Resale value, how to repair, etc... But now the situation has changed. No more care about those kinds of things. Only the factor is Price and quality..... (Note: still some 70's - 90's people are there. but I'm talking about the majority new car buyers)

Edited September 19, 2015 by gayanath

[Pericles]

Actually, I oppose with Crosswind.

1. We have no power crisis now. Problem is cater to the maximum demand which need at peak hours (morning and late evening) but after the 900 MW coal power plant we have enough power. If we plan to charge EV's at night (after 10:30 pm up to 4:00 am) it will not a headache to country. Your 82.5 MW is nothing in night time. If we could build Sampur coal plant too, then we have extra power.

2. Country will be ready for EVs in very near future if government support. Im sure it will take 2-3 years.

3. Solar net metering is loss to CEB as we have no huge demand in day time (as we have no enough industrial usage). But we could save some water to use in night time too. But if the country having big demand in day time due to industrial requirement, then net metering is like a god. We have to take country to that.

Currently, In Sri Lanka, majority is buying a single car (due to the family income level) for full range of use (short distance / long distance and trips). In that sense, EV is not a good solution as we are using own vehicles for long distance transport requirements. But now its turning back day by day. Same time, if public transport became good in next couple of years, Then, lot of people will buy EVs.

Earlier, most people consider whether the car is Japan, Resale value, how to repair, etc... But now the situation has changed. No more care about those kinds of things. Only the factor is Price and quality..... (Note: still some 70's - 90's people are there. but I'm talking about the majority new car buyers)

And just going thru the car buying advise threads ppl open in the forum will show how ppl think about cars. Also 70-90 ppl are the 50-20 year olds. Now, this might just be me, but I don't think many people born after the 90s are buying cars in Sri Lanka. For one thing, they'll be 15 years old this year...

[hrm]

they are saying that the 2016 leaf will have 25% more range than the current one.

The battery capacity has been increased from 24KWh to 30KWh.

So that means it takes even longer to charge?

[gayanath]

And just going thru the car buying advise threads ppl open in the forum will show how ppl think about cars. Also 70-90 ppl are the 50-20 year olds. Now, this might just be me, but I don't think many people born after the 90s are buying cars in Sri Lanka. For one thing, they'll be 15 years old this year...

Regarding the 70-90 matter, actually my idea was, buyers who by cars manufactured between 70's to end 90's. Agreed that, by fast typing I did a mistake and the meaning goes wrong.

By the date of birth sense, it should be change as 55's-75's who are now 40 to 60 years old and above that. Though below 40's are thinking in new way, still some minority people are there among them with same old mind set. Can't help ne.......

Edited September 20, 2015 by gayanath

[gayanath]

So that means it takes even longer to charge?

May be or may not be.

It depends on the charger we used. We have the option of selecting the charging pattern.

On the other hand, if we use something to take the benefit of it, same time we have to change our life style to suit it. Otherwise, all technology improvements will be burdens to us.

Edited September 20, 2015 by gayanath

[B2Spirit]

Actually, I oppose with Crosswind.

1. We have no power crisis now. Problem is cater to the maximum demand which need at peak hours (morning and late evening) but after the 900 MW coal power plant we have enough power. If we plan to charge EV's at night (after 10:30 pm up to 4:00 am) it will not a headache to country. Your 82.5 MW is nothing in night time. If we could build Sampur coal plant too, then we have extra power.

Lovely Idea !

Can you tell us how you plan to enforce this 2230-0400 charging time ?

We don't need to build Sampur to charge electric cars.

Sampur is needed to ensure that we can continue to provide electricity to the entire country around the clock.

The Only way the EVs are gonna be green is if they use the excess capacity coming out of solar systems. For you to do that u have to become a bat so that u can sleep during the day and roam during the night.

[gayanath]

Lovely Idea !

Can you tell us how you plan to enforce this 2230-0400 charging time ?

We don't need to build Sampur to charge electric cars.

Sampur is needed to ensure that we can continue to provide electricity to the entire country around the clock.

The Only way the EVs are gonna be green is if they use the excess capacity coming out of solar systems. For you to do that u have to become a bat so that u can sleep during the day and roam during the night.

Can you tell us how you plan to enforce this 2230-0400 charging time ?

Answer: Very Simple. There are enough control systems (with timers) and electricity meters. Already the CEB industrial meters having remote monitoring features (I personally know) but not using as other infrastructure still developing. We could plug our car at night. Control system will do it. CEB has to give new connections (actualy one more meter to be fixed only) as a national policy. This has under discussion now....

We don't need to build Sampur to charge electric cars.

Sampur is needed to ensure that we can continue to provide electricity to the entire country around the clock.

Answer: Sampur is building not for electric cars man.. Its to provide low cost energy to fulfill the requirement of the country. Norochcholai is currently providing a unit for 5-7 rupees while diesel plant cost around 20-30 rupees. If sampur completed we could shout down some diesel and entire cost will be reduced not only for EV but for entire industry and poor households. (Do you know, All the plant cost of Norochcholai is recovered now. Considering the environment matter, 99.5 % exhaust dust are collected and only 0.5 % could be go out. Its minor considering the impact of the vehicle emission).

The Only way the EVs are gonna be green is if they use the excess capacity coming out of solar systems. For you to do that u have to become a bat so that u can sleep during the day and roam during the night.

Answer: No need to argue on this as by looking this I could just say you have no idea about electricity / power / generation efficiency related matters. Using more efficient generation means less harm to environment. Yes, solar is extream end but IC engine is at low end. So what ever in between should be considered towards green. Hybrids are greener than Non hybrid due to higher efficiency. EV's are greener than them as those are depends on efficiency of the power plants which is more than hybrids with engines.

Any way, accepted that, there are draw backs on EV's. That's why I told in my previous post, we have to change our life style to take the maximum benefit of it. Otherwise it will not suitable for us.

Every things are having pros and cons. Decisions should be taken by doing "Cost benefit analysis".

Lots of people telling thing by looking only pros or only cons. It will not beneficial to the nation.

Edited September 20, 2015 by gayanath

[Rumesh88]

@gayanath

1. Only way one can enforce an off-peak EV charging time is by introducing dual tariff meters to households. This is not yet in sight.

2. No one is going to shutdown to diesel generators even after completing Sampur. DGs are controlled by those in power, both now and in the past. Also it is not only exhaust dust that is given off when you burn coal.

3. There is no way one can go green by burning a different fossil fuel to produce electricity for EVs. You are only shifting the point of pollution.

However, EV is the step in right direction but we are not ready for it - not yet.

[gayanath]

@gayanath

1. Only way one can enforce an off-peak EV charging time is by introducing dual tariff meters to households. This is not yet in sight.

2. No one is going to shutdown to diesel generators even after completing Sampur. DGs are controlled by those in power, both now and in the past. Also it is not only exhaust dust that is given off when you burn coal.

3. There is no way one can go green by burning a different fossil fuel to produce electricity for EVs. You are only shifting the point of pollution.

However, EV is the step in right direction but we are not ready for it - not yet.

1. Same thing I have mentioned above. Thats why need new meter as existing meters are not time dependent. Need to make policy. Will come soon.

2. Already port power plant 60MW, Matara power plant completely shutdown. Yes... there are several political issues available those who are in power. but some improvement can be expected. Think about burning fuel in less controlled manner inside IC engines every where. Burning coal is done in very controlled manner. That's why I told all should be compare and evaluate.

3. Thats why I told efficiency. high efficient means high power by less quantity which lesser the emission. But until we go for solar (bec solar is the base of all) we cannot completely eliminate.

4. Agreed. But we should go as a nation.

Any way this all energy related engineering matters cannot clarify by this type forum.

Edited September 20, 2015 by gayanath

[Crosswind]

1. Same thing I have mentioned above. Thats why need new meter as existing meters are not time dependent. Need to make policy. Will come soon.

2. Already port power plant 60MW, Matara power plant completely shutdown. Yes... there are several political issues available those who are in power. but some improvement can be expected. Think about burning fuel in less controlled manner inside IC engines every where. Burning coal is done in very controlled manner. That's why I told all should be compare and evaluate.

3. Thats why I told efficiency. high efficient means high power by less quantity which lesser the emission. But until we go for solar (bec solar is the base of all) we cannot completely eliminate.

4. Agreed. But we should go as a nation.

Any way this all energy related engineering matters cannot clarify by this type forum.

We need Sampur desperately. No question about that. But if you think the purpose of Sampur should be for providing cheap electricity to consumers, that's where you are wrong (although you have mentioned Sampur is not being built for charging electric cars, its ironic that the rest of your argument is in the opposite line)

One reason why investment in this country has been lacklusture is due to the heavy tariff laid down on electricity for industries. We don't even have the garment factories we used to have back in the 1990s and this country desperately needs to find its own niche in the world market, which we have lost long ago - no more tea, no more coconut, no more rubber, no more garments.

We need good electricity generating facilities to build a manufacturing industry in this country and AS A NATION, that's what we should be trying to achieve. AS A NATION, if we think, 'hey, we got Sampur so let's all buy Nissan Leafs', that's the selfish Sri Lankan attitude we have had for decades and that needs to change.

So screw the dual-tariff meters. AS A NATION, let's grow some brains and understand some priorities.

[NPP]

http://www.lankabusinessonline.com/ceb-announces-new-off-peak-tariff-to-charge-electric-vehicles/

Off peak tariff is in fact already being offered as per above between 10.30pm and 5.30am

Charging during this time will be fine (up to a limit) and CEB will also get some much needed income.

More plants are needed if the load requirement increases during peak hours. We don't need new capacity to charge cars at night me thinks.

[gayanath]

We need Sampur desperately. No question about that. But if you think the purpose of Sampur should be for providing cheap electricity to consumers, that's where you are wrong (although you have mentioned Sampur is not being built for charging electric cars, its ironic that the rest of your argument is in the opposite line)

One reason why investment in this country has been lacklusture is due to the heavy tariff laid down on electricity for industries. We don't even have the garment factories we used to have back in the 1990s and this country desperately needs to find its own niche in the world market, which we have lost long ago - no more tea, no more coconut, no more rubber, no more garments.

We need good electricity generating facilities to build a manufacturing industry in this country and AS A NATION, that's what we should be trying to achieve. AS A NATION, if we think, 'hey, we got Sampur so let's all buy Nissan Leafs', that's the selfish Sri Lankan attitude we have had for decades and that needs to change.

So screw the dual-tariff meters. AS A NATION, let's grow some brains and understand some priorities.

@ Crosswind,

I think, the things are messed in your mind because of no broader view regarding the matter. Your some points are extremely correct and I too agreed. But I cannot understand why you tell "But if you think the purpose of Sampur should be for providing cheap electricity to consumers, that's where you are wrong" .

Who told sampur is required for EVs or we can use EV's due to Sampur. Clearly I have mentioned that Sri Lanka have enough power now to cater maximum demand. but at higher cost. Norechcholei helped to reduced the cost (in addition to match the maximum demand) but still we should reduce the cost to improve the industry of the country. (Your second paragraph is correct and agreed). Yes, not only power price but also other factors affecting to industry but I didn't discuss it earlier as this is a separate issue. Same time, I have told your 82.5 MW matter is nothing due to availability of enough power at off peak time at low cost. No need any new power plants for it thanks to Norechcholai and hydro.

So, lets appreciate that, even in Sri Lanka, energy sector is turning by positive way but slowly due to the culture (political) of us. We should support to it. Otherwise we will be selfish as you told.

If you need to study further regarding the energy plan of Sri Lanka for next 20 years, please go to the web site of Public Utilities Commission of Sri Lanka. CEB has published the plan for 2016 to 2035 and they are requesting public comments which you too could participate.

http://www.lankabusinessonline.com/ceb-announces-new-off-peak-tariff-to-charge-electric-vehicles/

Off peak tariff is in fact already being offered as per above between 10.30pm and 5.30am

Charging during this time will be fine (up to a limit) and CEB will also get some much needed income.

More plants are needed if the load requirement increases during peak hours. We don't need new capacity to charge cars at night me thinks.

@ NPP,

Thanks for highlighting the tariff matter. Although I had known about the discussions are progressing, just I know that it is implementing very soon.

Yes, agreed with your other matters too.

On the other hand, Nissan Leaf is not the only EV car which we have to discuss. Lets see new models in future. Same time Toyota is going for Hydrogen Fuell Cell. Lets welcome them too if they good for us as a Nation (only if good). but still if we can build our own, its the best.

Edited September 20, 2015 by gayanath

[nsiva]

This is what the state power utility tries to implement for EV charging (still not approved yet)

http://www.ceb.lk/sub/news/news01.aspx?acquiesce=87